Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

jiva602
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by jiva602 »

gsuoumu wrote:As someone who's currently only flying piston aircraft - and still learning with those - I didn't think this would really be worth my attention.

And then I read the Hidden Gem section. And that looks pretty damn interesting.
I was thinking about this and hoping the low and slow crowd would be able to enjoy the new expansion. This truly is a gem and one that will greatly expand our horizons :D
Cessna Skylane N108ES
Socata TBM 850 N852XM
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sidfadc
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by sidfadc »

Awesome stuff! Can't wait.
joespeed52
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by joespeed52 »

I have not flown on PilotEdge for many months after my account has terminated. I think adding this huge space is actually a waste, personally. I think that just listening to the frequencies some days it seems there are a small amount of controllers online, and they have to fill as many positions as there are on PE. I find that spreading the ATC so thin to make each controller work as a separate ARTCC or something like that is just a waste. And to add extra money per month to pay for this control. Sure, VATSIM and IVAO are not as professional, but at least you get non-stop ATC some days from one side of the US to the other, FOR FREE! I'm not promoting VATSIM, I'm just saying that it is much better in terms of places to fly and controllers online at any time. Sure, PE is better and more professional, but the space to fly in, the controller variety, and the terminology is confusing. I'm sticking to VATSIM for now, and probably forever.

Thanks.
Keith Smith
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by Keith Smith »

...but at least you get non-stop ATC some days from one side of the US to the other, FOR FREE!
That's great news. Which days would those be?
zerofay32
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by zerofay32 »

joespeed52 wrote:I have not flown on PilotEdge for many months after my account has terminated. I think adding this huge space is actually a waste, personally. I think that just listening to the frequencies some days it seems there are a small amount of controllers online, and they have to fill as many positions as there are on PE. I find that spreading the ATC so thin to make each controller work as a separate ARTCC or something like that is just a waste. And to add extra money per month to pay for this control. Sure, VATSIM and IVAO are not as professional, but at least you get non-stop ATC some days from one side of the US to the other, FOR FREE! I'm not promoting VATSIM, I'm just saying that it is much better in terms of places to fly and controllers online at any time. Sure, PE is better and more professional, but the space to fly in, the controller variety, and the terminology is confusing. I'm sticking to VATSIM for now, and probably forever.

Thanks.
Part of the extra fee for the expansion is to cover extra controllers. I'm sure someone "in the know" can confirm this but it sounds like after the expansion goes live, a minimum of two controllers will be online at any given time (one covering ZLA and one covering the expansion).

Then again, this post sounds like nothing more than a dig... :|
Andrew Fay
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Keith Smith
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by Keith Smith »

Joe,

Your trial consisted of 3 flights, two of which were pattern work at non-towered airports, the other flight was pattern work at BFL. The flights were 8 minutes, 8 minutes and 10 minute each. It doesn't sound like you gave the system much of a try.

If you've found a network that better suits your needs, then that's truly a good thing, however, the arguments you put forth don't appear to make much sense. The premise of PE is that we provide ATC on a scheduled, reliable basis, 15x7. We don't say that you'll have 20 controllers online during that time.

Had you taken the time to explore the network in detail, you would've had the chance to experience a radio system which requires a plausible number of frequency changes during your flight. Complete the same flight on any other online network and see which frequencies you're using, and how often they change. To the best of my knowledge, nothing even comes close to what we're offering. I was going to compare a PE flight between two city pairs to the same flight on VATSIM right now, but wasn't able to do so, because there is no ATC online (at all) between the two city pairs, so I picked another random 2...same result.

Thankfully, though, LA Center just came online on VATSIM. So, if I take my SFO to SAN flight (the second city pair that I chose), we can now do a comparison of the experience of conducting the flight on both networks. Just to save myself some time, I won't list the freqs, but I will list the positions that I'd be calling on both flights (post expansion)

PE VERSION:
SFO clearance
SFO ground
SFO tower
Norcal departure
Oakland Center West Low
Oakland Center South High
LA Center High
LA Center Low (Avenal sector)
LA Center Low (Imperial sector)
Socal (West)
SAN tower
SAN ground (or perhaps they'll just have you stay on tower)

VATSIM version (as of 12:59pm PST 12/12/16)
- 122.80 (text) until half way to SAN
- 125.80 LAX Center for the rest of the flight....

That's it. Come back in 2 hours and the situation might be the better, the same, or worse. Edit: at of 1:23pm (20 minutes into our hypothetical flight), the VATSIM staffing situation has downgraded from LA Center to just Socal Approach. So, at some random, unknown point, we would call Socal on 124.50. We'd have to monitor this mythical controller list to see how the situation develops.

I get the "FREE!" argument, I really do, and if you're happy with the result, that's terrific, but I'm surprised that you would argue that non-PE service is routinely better when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary and that an expansion is a 'waste' when people have been clamoring for this for several years.

Transport category jets need quite a bit of room to operate realistically, and right now, those ops on PE usually use SFO or LAS on at least one end of the flight. Expanding the airspace allows more jet operations at a much wider variety of city pairs. I disagree that it's a waste, but time will tell.
Keith Smith
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by Keith Smith »

Part of the extra fee for the expansion is to cover extra controllers. I'm sure someone "in the know" can confirm this but it sounds like after the expansion goes live, a minimum of two controllers will be online at any given time (one covering ZLA and one covering the expansion).
That is correct. It would be a very cruel world if we tried to have one controller covering the expansion area and ZLA at the same time. That's not the intention at all.
ridikamus
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by ridikamus »

joespeed52 wrote:I have not flown on PilotEdge for many months after my account has terminated. I think adding this huge space is actually a waste, personally. I think that just listening to the frequencies some days it seems there are a small amount of controllers online, and they have to fill as many positions as there are on PE. I find that spreading the ATC so thin to make each controller work as a separate ARTCC or something like that is just a waste. And to add extra money per month to pay for this control.
The expansion area is always staffed by a separate controller, so they're not "spreading the ATC so thin". Adding another controller position costs PE money, hence the additional (optional) subscription cost. To emphasize, the additional cost for the Western Expansion is optional.
joespeed52 wrote:Sure, VATSIM and IVAO are not as professional, but at least you get non-stop ATC some days from one side of the US to the other, FOR FREE! I'm not promoting VATSIM, I'm just saying that it is much better in terms of places to fly and controllers online at any time.
VATSIM coverage is at the whim of amateur controllers deciding whether or not they feel like controlling. I would be stunned if you could get coast-to-coast coverage, ever, unless an event was organized specifically for that purpose. Heck, I'd be surprised if you could get a full flight's worth of authentic handoffs according to real world procedures regardless of route.
joespeed52 wrote:Sure, PE is better and more professional
Yup!
joespeed52 wrote:but the space to fly in
...is intentionally limited to provide traffic density and allow quality service without unreasonable staff requirements. ZLA provides just about every challenge imaginable. It's the perfect training airspace.
joespeed52 wrote:the controller variety
...is not the point of the network. Getting "voice changes" on different frequencies is a novelty and has no bearing on the quality of the training experience.
joespeed52 wrote:and the terminology is confusing
The terminology used on PilotEdge is identical to real world practices. VATSIM is not. If you're confused by PE terminology, there are vast amounts of training materials available, including the VFR and IFR workshops and the Training Ratings - not to mention hundreds of YouTube videos, twitch streams, and forum posts.

Alternatively. you could just grab a copy of the real world rules, regulations, and training standards. They will transfer 100% to PE. That's why I will never fly VATSIM, and why PilotEdge is such a great value.
V-3 CAT-11 I-11
BFG
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by BFG »

joespeed52 wrote:I have not flown on PilotEdge for many months after my account has terminated. I think adding this huge space is actually a waste, personally. I think that just listening to the frequencies some days it seems there are a small amount of controllers online, and they have to fill as many positions as there are on PE. I find that spreading the ATC so thin to make each controller work as a separate ARTCC or something like that is just a waste. And to add extra money per month to pay for this control. Sure, VATSIM and IVAO are not as professional, but at least you get non-stop ATC some days from one side of the US to the other, FOR FREE! I'm not promoting VATSIM, I'm just saying that it is much better in terms of places to fly and controllers online at any time. Sure, PE is better and more professional, but the space to fly in, the controller variety, and the terminology is confusing. I'm sticking to VATSIM for now, and probably forever.

Thanks.
As a student pilot, I can say that PE is the only service to whom I will trust my training and radio proficiency. The terminology may seem confusing, but it is real world and accurate, which is precisely while I find the service so valuable. It's not even a close comparison to any alternative in my view, and worth every penny. I felt this way as a simmer prior to starting flight training as well (and know many others who do, too). But the good news is, to each is own.
joespeed52
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Re: Western US Expansion Launch: Dec 27

Post by joespeed52 »

Alright, perhaps my reply to this post was not backed up with facts or not even factual at all. I just came here to say that while I was impressed, I think that I'd rather spend my money putting 100LL in my Aeronca Champ and flying without a radio than continuing arguing with the people here. Sorry for even trying to fly on here, since it seems as if nobody here was helpful at all. Thank you all for your time, and I'll see you in another life.
-Joe
-Final Post before deactivating my account.-
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