What FSE Services do you want?

FSE and PE make for a powerful combination

What FSE Services do you want?

Small Aircraft Rentals (C172, BE58, etc)
5
10%
Medium Aircraft Rentals (B200, MU2, etc)
8
16%
Large Aircraft Rentals (CRJ2, Q400, etc)
3
6%
Small Aircraft Leasing
6
12%
Medium Aircraft Leasing
5
10%
Large Aircraft Leasing
0
No votes
Aircraft Financing
14
27%
Forget airplanes, more FBOs
8
16%
Nothing
2
4%
 
Total votes: 51

Peter Grey
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:21 pm

Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by Peter Grey »

To answer a couple of the FSE related questions that have come up:
For those of you that rent wet, why does the fuel price matter at all since the owner pays?
If you rent at all the fuel price of the FBO is not relevant to you.

If you rent Wet the owner covers fuel, if you rent Dry you (the renter) is always charged the system fuel price (4.45 for AVGAS). It does not matter what the FBO price is. The owner pays the FBO price (and usually makes a profit as a result).

Note if you are flying a system airplane the airplane also always pays the system price (and ignores whatever price the FBO has set). This is designed to prevent an FBO owner from wet renting, and then refilling the plane as his FBO for $4000 a gallon.
IMO the FBO owners should NOT attempt to increase volume at the expense of making enough profit to sustain operations. Be business smart and let someone else sell fuel at cost or a loss.
FSE economics are weird. There's a lot of "support the new player" at the expense of owners. For example it's normal that when someone does an auction for a C172 that many people suggest he just gives it away to a new player. Low fuel prices are part of that dynamic (even though as brought up above it doesn't really matter). The reality is that FSE is designed so that the only way to make money is to fly. That's 100% ok considering the goals of FSE. However, for those of us who want to make "hands off" networks to grow a community it's very hard.
Why don't people complain about those fees? Is it because most just consider part of the cost of doing business? Or is it there isn't much control over ground crew fees where as there is some choice where to buy fuel?
Ground crew fees are a fixed part of the game that no one has any control over (include FBO owners). As the FSE forum has a strict "no discussion on changing game features" policy discussion on those fees can't really come up. Here is how the fees work:

You are always* charged a 10% ground crew fee. 5% goes to the departure airport FBOs (if there is more then 1 FBO at the departure airport they are split evenly among all FBOs unless it's a green job, then only the green job FBO gets the fee) and 5% goes to the arrival airport (using the same rules). It's the main source of FBO income. When we say TSP is profitable we mean that the ground crew fees Keith gets exceeds the cost of supplies (but not capital expenses)

*If there is no FBO at the departure or destination airport you don't pay that 5%
If you plan to just provide financing to PE pilots that makes it much easier.
If we go down that route I don't think we can actually limit who we offer financing to (it could be interpreted as a violation of the "no paying for FSE items" rule in my opinion), however we would only advertise the existence of these services on the PE forum (we wouldn't post in the FSE forum {I'm not a fan of that forum personally}, have a google searchable website, or advertise the group within the FSE directories).

The calculation is rather simple to me on the financing side. If we need v$50,000 a month to run the FBOs then we would need a 10% yearly return on 6 million. We aren't interested in financing every FSE aircraft out there, just enough to get enough income to run the non profitable services. Once we finance that 6 million we'd close up to loans until some amount was paid back. Obviously there's some real world realities that will mess with those numbers, but that's the basic idea in my mind (with respect to financing).

Honestly the more I think about the more split I am about the whole idea. Part of me think that it's adding too much to our plates, part of me thinks it's the best idea ever, and a third part thinks it's a great idea as long as I don't take outside money to do it. Right now I could easily scale back my expansion ideas, pay off the loan on my C46, and fly it 5 hours a month to keep the Golden Eagle Network alive indefinitely. But considering how little traffic it gets I wonder if that's the best use of my FSE (and personal) time, if I can do something else with those hours that helps the community more I'd rather do that. There are a lot of ways this can go so KS and I need to chat to figure it all out.

I know this is a bit of backtracking, but the poll was really meant as a basic survey for an idea that may or may not happen months down the road. I don't know how it got to people sending me money and offering to pull strings to help PE members out (which I am grateful for :D ) and honestly that sudden snowball (which indicates a great community by the way) scares me a bit. There's a lot of good will out there (another sign of a great community) and we don't want to hurt that in any way. If we get to a point where the only missing piece is capital then we will engage with the community regarding that. In the interim if people have ideas we are always willing to listen.

That's it for me for the time being. I'll answer any FSE questions, but don't expect to hear anything on FSE service expansion for a while.
Peter Grey
PilotEdge Director of Quality Assurance and Operations
peter@pilotedge.net
trigger_fsx
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:45 pm

Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by trigger_fsx »

kullery wrote:Peter will never ask for help but that doesn't mean we can't chip in to help anyway.
I am also willing to transfer a percentage of my FSE earnings towards the building and maintainence of the PE/FSE network.
stevekirks wrote: My FSE barrier to entry (meaning "playing the game") is the pre-planning of flights to get departure and arrival pairs. Then I can go into flight planning which leads me to the reason I fired up the sim in the first place: connect to PilotEdge and fly.
To try and address the planning concern in the mean time, why don't we start a thread where those that enjoy planning FSE flights can post updates on available routes based on certain criteria like profits, available aircraft etc. Then when someone flies one of these routes they can transfer an amount of their own choice (not compulsory) to the "PE Bank". Not sure if this violates the FSE TOS as this tyoe of thing is already happening on the FSE forum.
Jacques Le Roux
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Keith Smith
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Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by Keith Smith »

I would not be in favor of there being any kind of obligation for pilots to xfer funds to a pool to maintain the FSE FBOs.

The more jobs you fly on FSE at the PE-related FBOs, the more you're already supporting them. Obviously, some FBO's will be more popular than others based on location, job count and the popularity of the locations going to/from that airport. The more successful FBOs subsidize the existence of the less frequented FBOs. For example, Valley Vista and Skylark are hit nearly every day, whereas the desert FBOs (Valle, Huluapai and X-1 Ranch) see relatively few visitors, despite having similar job counts with flights going to/from 46CA.

If the FBO network breaks even (ie, it makes enough money to pay for the supplies, delivered) then I'm happy because it's creating a convenient experience for PE users. That was the goal from the outset. If it makes money, that's even better because it means that FBO expansion can happen faster.

With regards to 'competition'....as long as there are quality opportunities for PE users to enjoy using FSE within the PE area, I really don't mind who is running those FBOs.

My motivation for having control over the FBOs is because there are many, many ways to configure the gates at an FBO. I am of the opinion that certain configurations are more desirable for the pilots than others. Here's a concrete example...if an FBO can create up to 12 passengers at any given time, I believe that users are more interested in being able to do a round-trip in a Baron, C206, PC-12 or King Air, more or less filling every seat on the way there and the way back. It makes little sense (to me at least), to have 100+nm jobs, but to only have a maximum of 1, 2 or 3 of those jobs. That doesn't represent a quality FSE opportunity to me.
Peter Grey
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:21 pm

Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by Peter Grey »

I agree with KS. The easiest way to make the PE FSE FBOs profitable is to fly to them. There hasn't been an operation at a Golden Eagle FBO since Tuesday. If the FSE FBOs were profitable this thread wouldn't exist.

If we move forward with a bank type setup (which is not certain at this point). Any funds that are transferred over to a bank type setup is considered to be considered a deposit which will earn interest for the depositor. People will be able to withdraw funds at any time (however like real banks we'd likely increase the interest rate in return for a commitment to keep your funds with us for a set period of time, like a certificate of deposit). Depositing into the bank would not be required for any reason.
To try and address the planning concern in the mean time, why don't we start a thread where those that enjoy planning FSE flights can post updates on available routes based on certain criteria like profits, available aircraft etc. Then when someone flies one of these routes they can transfer an amount of their own choice (not compulsory) to the "PE Bank". Not sure if this violates the FSE TOS as this tyoe of thing is already happening on the FSE forum.
Nothing you propose is against the FSE TOS. The FSE TOS are actually very liberal, the only thing that we can't do is trade virtual items for real world currency or items. I'm interpreting this to mean that we can't give any PE member an "advantage" over a non PE member solely because they have paid for PE. This means any service that we do provide will be open to all. However, we are not required to advertise our services in any specific way. Therefore, we will only advertise in areas that PE users are likely to see (this forum). If a random FSE user who is not a PE member finds our service and signs up for it we won't stop them (we aren't going to ask about PE affiliation).

I'll mention it *is* legal to offer FSE services that cost v$. There are several third party tools which require virtual payment to use. If there is interest in setting up a formal "PE FSE flight planner" we could set that up and charge v$ for it.

The only other thing that we could run into right now that is not legal is that you cannot pick up a job with the intent to sell it to another person without moving it. So no "hoarding jobs" to sell off through some sort of mechanism, note if you move the job you can sell it.

To facilitate future expansion and to prevent me from losing any funds anyone has sent me I have created a new FSE group.

We are not requesting funds at this time, however if you can't stop yourself from sending some (thanks!) please send it to "Golden Eagle Aviation Services".
Peter Grey
PilotEdge Director of Quality Assurance and Operations
peter@pilotedge.net
David Gilbert
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 6:07 am

Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by David Gilbert »

I have a handful of FBO's and a small amount of rented amount gates. The only FBO's that barely break even are the ones that point at 46CA Rancho Vallecito. I have been recently thinking of cancelling my rented gates as its costing me v$6000 a month to rent them and only a handful of people have flown into my hub on those jobs. If people want plenty of jobs in the SoCal area at a variety of airfields then you need to support the FBO's by flying into those airfields. No way is owning an FBO an easy way of making v$'s unless your FBO is very popular.
Normal call sign: N8295L or TPX
stevekirks
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Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by stevekirks »

Peter Grey wrote:I agree with KS. The easiest way to make the PE FSE FBOs profitable is to fly to them. There hasn't been an operation at a Golden Eagle FBO since Tuesday. If the FSE FBOs were profitable this thread wouldn't exist.
This comes back to my point in a previous post: I need some routing help when it comes to networks.

Proposals:

1. Maybe the network owners could have a FBO Info post "pinned" at the top of this forum. It would have the basics: FBO Network name, locations listed, link to a map, at least one suggested multi-hop route. This single post would let someone know.
2. Could we get a Come Fly With Me event run/organized by FBO owners? The owner would lay out the event and maybe offer some type of incentive. Run the event over a week and maybe be complimentary to something like Ken's Precision Flight Challenge.

I feel like with some organizational help, I would fly the FBO networks more often. I usually fly TSP routes out of 46CA but with so many gates pointing back and forth, the volume of possibilities starts to overwhelm me a bit.

Hope this helps...

Steve
Steve Kirks (sKirks on Twitch)
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stealthbob
Posts: 290
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Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by stealthbob »

stevekirks wrote: I feel like with some organizational help, I would fly the FBO networks more often. I usually fly TSP routes out of 46CA but with so many gates pointing back and forth, the volume of possibilities starts to overwhelm me a bit.

Hope this helps...
I am exactly where you are...

I just started to figure out the TSP routes and acquired the airport scenery...makes it nice, I especially like to stop in at 46CA 8-)

Having a pinned "Directory" of sorts for each PE FBO network would be helpful.
Keith Smith
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Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by Keith Smith »

I think posting some multi-route hops to help people get in the door is a good idea. However, I think it's also possible to over-think and over-engineer the FSE environment. The fun goes away pretty quickly if you have to spend too long getting a flight together.

The FSE web site is quick & easy to use...it really isn't that hard to click a candidate destination, check nearby airports and come up with a plan of action.

I agree that there can be many, many choices of which airplane to use and where to fly but at the end of the day, you can't go too far wrong by picking up some jobs and just flying them :) Part of the fun is supposed to be trying new fields and new combinations of segments. If it becomes to over-engineered or too heavily automated, I believe the fun factor will go away and you'll soon be 'flying a bus', doing the same routes on a routine basis, just chasing the money.
wmburns
Posts: 474
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Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by wmburns »

I could not agree more regarding having an easy to find document regarding the FBO network. It has grown from a tiny germ almost to an overgrown forest in record time.

I have noted tons of cases where available jobs have expired after 21 days. In a sense, this represents v$'s left on the table.

The network has grown to the point where it's incredibly easy for me to find a 5 PAX load to fly out of 46CA. What I have been doing recently is sorting the loads by distance from 46CA. I then start with the closest 5 PAX load and then see if there's a RETURN 5 PAX load. I take the first 5 PAX round trip load that I can find. I seriously try to avoid flying into a field without a good load to return (IE a one way trip).

Sometimes the round trip time will take more time to fly than I have. So then more research is needed. It just seems that lately my home life won't allow much more than an 1 hour BE58 flight. In fact this weekend I was able to complete a 240 nm (1.4 hr) flight from 46CA to 52AZ. This was one of the longer or my recent FSE flights.

In some ways, 46CA is a victim of it's own success! Suggestion. IF there were another sizable hub about 100-200 nm North of 46CA that would make a good location to range from. What that would do is offer an incentive to range further from 46CA while still having an easy option back.

IMO it would be even better if the alternate feeder hub were at a towered airport!
Peter Grey
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:21 pm

Re: What FSE Services do you want?

Post by Peter Grey »

IF there were another sizable hub about 100-200 nm North of 46CA that would make a good location to range from. What that would do is offer an incentive to range further from 46CA while still having an easy option back.
The P20 Golden Eagle hub is 128 NM NE of 46CA and currently has green jobs to 9 airports ranging from 24 to 396 NM away (with 2 of those airports being towered).

P20 is pointed at 46CA so there will always be jobs back (also a few of the airports that point to P20 also point to 46CA).
Peter Grey
PilotEdge Director of Quality Assurance and Operations
peter@pilotedge.net
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