Groups Best Practices?

FSE and PE make for a powerful combination
stevekirks
Posts: 589
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:00 pm
Location: KSGF
Contact:

Groups Best Practices?

Post by stevekirks »

Note: I've read the manual

All:

I'm trying to figure out the best way to use groups in FSE. Right now, I have one created with some seed money and a Cessna 172 to see what I can do with it. So far these are my guesses:

1. A "holding company" for airplanes to rent.
2. A group that gathers existing flights and holds them for group members to fly, taking a cut of the profits
3. A company that does #1 and #2 above plus owns FBOs.

What do others use groups for? Banking?

There was a flying club that seemed to make a go of groups. If that owner is here, how did that work out?

PS--There's easy FSE money to be made in Yemen and the Saudi peninsula.
Last edited by stevekirks on Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve Kirks (sKirks on Twitch)
KSGF--I-10 rated
Student Pilot
I invented the Alphabet Challenge, what's your excuse?
Alphabet Challenge
Keith Smith
Posts: 9939
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:38 pm
Location: Pompton Plains, NJ
Contact:

Re: Groups Best Practices

Post by Keith Smith »

am yet to see groups work well for all involved.
BluesmanEP
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:06 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Groups Best Practices

Post by BluesmanEP »

Groups can take many different forms, and all of your points are correct. I've got a personal group that I use for stats purposes and for banking, as well as holding jobs that I want to keep track of, but don't want to leave in my regular job queue. I know a lot of people that use groups as holding companies, both for solely private property (aircraft and FBOs), as well as rentable planes.

I'm also a staff member of the largest pilot group in FSE, Chilkoot Air. Our group is highly organized, with fully dispatched flights, and large number of group assets. We use the groups to track our pilot's flights, as well as have several other groups to move assets around, organize jobs moving between our hubs, and to track finances etc.

Basically groups can be whatever you want! :) From a simple tool to keep your personal v$ and assets organized, to a very large, cooperative effort involving many pilots, administrators, and dispatchers. It's up to you!

Hope that helps, just my 2 cents.
_________________________________
Evan Purcell - PPL ASEL - New York, NY
PE Aircraft:
BE33 - N1546R
BE58 - N4854B
Peter Grey
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:21 pm

Re: Groups Best Practices

Post by Peter Grey »

The only good use I've seen for groups is as "holding accounts" for V$ in complex FSE corporations.

I've never seen a use for groups in terms of pilot groups.
Peter Grey
PilotEdge Director of Quality Assurance and Operations
peter@pilotedge.net
BluesmanEP
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:06 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Groups Best Practices

Post by BluesmanEP »

I'm curious Peter and Keith, you both seem to be fairly negative on FSE groups.... how come? Bad experience, or do they just not add anything to your style of FSE play?

Just wondering :)
_________________________________
Evan Purcell - PPL ASEL - New York, NY
PE Aircraft:
BE33 - N1546R
BE58 - N4854B
ridikamus
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:37 pm

Re: Groups Best Practices

Post by ridikamus »

I joined the Flying Penguin Club, a group for PE users started by crum, some time ago. As far as I can tell I'm the only pilot who has logged any flights for the group in some time. The group owner (crum) is on an extended vacation. My thoughts:

-Being a part of a social group is cool, and that definitely counts for something.
-Flying for a group can get assignments tangled up pretty easily. Once you take an assignment and select "fly this flight for the group", all assignments now belong to the group. If you cancel the assignments for whatever reason (Accidental selection, something came up and you don't have time to fly, whatever) they get thrown into the group pool and not released to the public. Only group staff can release them from the group pool.
-Similarly, sometimes you are forced to fly a flight "for the group" even when you don't want to because one of the assignments you have loaded is flagged as a group assignment. This can result in the group paying your rental costs (and taking their cut) on flights you intended to be flown for yourself.

Having said that, joining the FPC benefitted me greatly when I was getting started in FSE by giving me a narrower focus (I can fly these planes cheap. Where can I go in one of them?) and an economic head start. However, with the group unmaintained (I sort of ran up the hours on the B190 and B60T and now they're down for maintenance until crum gets back) I've shifted my focus back to a more solo sort of operation. I have a group that's basically a holding company - I use it to charge myself rent on the aircraft I now own and to separate my flying income from my FBO startups.
V-3 CAT-11 I-11
Peter Grey
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:21 pm

Re: Groups Best Practices

Post by Peter Grey »

I'm curious Peter and Keith, you both seem to be fairly negative on FSE groups.... how come? Bad experience, or do they just not add anything to your style of FSE play?
No bad experience (heck I technically run a "group" but it's just a holding account for donations I've been given to expand the Golden Eagle Network), just don't see the point. It's so easy to find a plane and some assignments I don't know why you want to add a middle man. I could see a "social" argument but I'm not a multiplayer game player.
Peter Grey
PilotEdge Director of Quality Assurance and Operations
peter@pilotedge.net
BluesmanEP
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:06 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Groups Best Practices

Post by BluesmanEP »

That makes total sense, and I think the value of a group depends greatly on your goals. If you're happy flying your own or rented planes with jobs you find locally than a group isn't a help at all. However, I think the real value of a group is when you're trying to do something that's larger and/or more complicated than one person could do, or realistically has time for.

When I was starting out in FSE (in the days of high money international cargo) I flew for a group to earn a lot of money very quickly. I was flying airplanes that I couldn't never afford, nor did I have to logistical network to even fill them if I could afford to own them. The group allowed me to participate in a meaningful way, even though I was a new player.

Then I flew solo for a while, and once I found Chilkoot I've been almost exclusively flying for them. I find the social aspect to be the key, as FSE can be a lonely place (without PE, that is :) ). The group is very interactive and we're always talking with, flying online, and working with each other. I also find the logistics and dispatching to be very rewarding also, since I travel a lot and am often away from my sim. It lets me stay involved even when I can't be flying.

Anyway.... that's more than anyone wanted to know I'm sure, but I just wanted to say I've had a very positive group experience. So, to each their own :)
_________________________________
Evan Purcell - PPL ASEL - New York, NY
PE Aircraft:
BE33 - N1546R
BE58 - N4854B
Nelson L.
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:18 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Groups Best Practices

Post by Nelson L. »

Peter Grey wrote:I'm not a multiplayer game player.
That explains a lot :)


Vegas Tower, can I have 25R?
No.

How about now?
No.

Pretty please?
UAL2253 Circle to Land RWY 07...
:oops:

(joking)
X-Plane 10.45
Pilotedge - V3/I11 (N2253F; UAL/CAL 2253; TPX___)
Alphabet Challenge - 2 Legs Completed
Keith Smith
Posts: 9939
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:38 pm
Location: Pompton Plains, NJ
Contact:

Re: Groups Best Practices

Post by Keith Smith »

PE is already a very social environment. Groups pay the pilot a fixed % of the gross revenue of a flight. Compare that to how pilots are normally paid when they conduct flights on PE and 99% of the time, you're either being underpaid or overpaid for the equivalent flight. The expenses for a given flight will be highly variable based on the operating cost of the aircraft, the duration of the legs and the number of passengers carried, yet the pay scale for the pilot is still a fixed, percentage of the gross revenue.

I think if groups paid pilots a % of the net revenue it would be more fair to everyone else in the group.

I've never been part of a group, but that's because I was turned off by them once I read the manual on how they operate.

Pooling resources to acquire some shared assets, I'm all for it. Paying pilots a % of gross revenue in such a highly variable environment...that's the part I can't wrap my ahead around. That, and with so many planes and jobs already available for the public, I guess I don't see the value. Each to their own, though...if it's working for you, enjoy!
Post Reply