Getting Trolled by ATC during I-5 practice run

Interesting ATC clips and situations from PilotEdge

Getting Trolled by ATC during I-5 practice run

Postby Aviatorbja » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:33 pm

Listen here at 6:43 when the conrollers tells me to turn LEFT heading 340 http://assets.pilotedge.net/recordings/hourly/2016-1-16_15_17510.mp3
Shortly after at 7:55 he said I would have failed the real I-5 because I turned the wrong way. Say what???

Before you join my pity party realize that I made multiple errors including landing at KLAS without an ATC clearance from tower. I was basically behind the airplane (737-800) the whole ride.
Brian Andonian
R/W: SEL, Commercial, CFI (expired)
Flight sim: Lancair Legacy, Turbine Duke N723BA
Aviatorbja
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:24 pm
Location: Plymouth, MI - USA

Re: Getting Trolled by ATC during I-5 practice run

Postby wmburns » Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:51 am

IMO. For a post such as this it would help if the basic information about the flight was included. At least include the call sign of the flight. I'm going to assume that you were Navy 491.

I did listen to the tapes. I have to agree that the controller confirmed your radar contact and instructed Navy 491 to turn left heading 340. The instruction was acknowledged.

Since asking for an opinion going to get mine (posting online is implicitly asking for an opinion :D )

After taking off from runway 15 at KBUR on the Van Nuys two SID should be flying a heading of 210. Obviously getting a left turn to 340 would be an unusual instruction. Unusual enough to ask for confirmation before unconditionally following.

The pilot and the controller are a TEAM. A team works best when everyone is working together. There's a school of thought that would say that you did not back up your team mate by not asking for confirmation of a HIGHLY unusual instruction. Consider that at the time you were on a standard instrument departure (SID). Think of a SID as a basic script to help keep everyone on the same game page. A major change from the script should at least have raised a red flag.

I'm sure that being "behind" the airplane didn't help matters. I have been there a few times myself. Certainly easier to hit a curve ball when you are ahead of the pitch.

<everything that follows is IMO>
The problem that I have with this tread is the assertion that you were "tolled". Being trolled implies it was a deliberate mean spirited act. Which clearly was not the case.

Remember the PE is a learning environment. An environment where mistakes are supposed to be made. If your goal is to be a better pilot, this situation should be view as a valuable learning opportunity.
wmburns
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:28 am

Re: Getting Trolled by ATC during I-5 practice run

Postby Keith Smith » Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:47 am

My guess is that the controller thought you were issued a right turn, not a left turn. Hence, when he/she saw the turn to the left, the reaction was as though you'd been instructed to turn the other way.

I can guarantee it wasn't trolling, that's not what the service is about, and we wouldn't be in business if that was how we routinely operated.

What you can take away from the experience is that any time you're given a turn 'the long way around' (ie, more than 180 degrees), it's worth verifying the direction of the turn unless the controller specifically emphasizes it (which shows they're aware that they're instructing you to turn the long way).

If you have a situation that requires review on our side, email ops@pilotedge.net (as shown on the Contact page on the web site) and we can look into it. The community isn't going to be able to explain the actions (which may well have been a mistake) on behalf of the controller. Since I saw it here, I'll pass it into Ops for review, but in the future, in case we miss it, ops@pilotedge.net is a better venue to bring a situation to our attention.

I'm not saying that to hide the issue from the community, you could still share the situation and outcome of the discussion with the community.
Keith Smith
 
Posts: 9167
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:38 pm
Location: Pompton Plains, NJ

Re: Getting Trolled by ATC during I-5 practice run

Postby Aviatorbja » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:34 pm

Keith, wmburns,
I can assure you both that my comment about "trolling" was entirely good-natured, meant to be funny. I took away absolutely no negative experiences from this flight. If anything, it was a valuable learning experience which is the ultimate goal of the service. In my RW experience, these calls happen in real life either by mistake or for a variety of reasons (separation, departing aircraft, etc..). I did find it a bit odd, but since I've never flown a SID in real life I wasn't too worried about it. I was barely managing the complexity of the airplane (PMDG 737NG), and trying to figure out heading hold mode.
The controller on duty was outstanding, and I'm guessing has real FAA ATC experience (certainly he must). The bottom line here is "if in doubt, verify the instruction". That goes for real world flying too obviously.

The service is outstanding, and this is in no way meant to be a complaint. Not one bit. Besides, I was equally at fault.

I apologize for my choice of words, and I surely hope I did not offend anyone!

Brian Andonian
RW Commercial, Instrument, former CFI (2600156)
Brian Andonian
R/W: SEL, Commercial, CFI (expired)
Flight sim: Lancair Legacy, Turbine Duke N723BA
Aviatorbja
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:24 pm
Location: Plymouth, MI - USA

Re: Getting Trolled by ATC during I-5 practice run

Postby wmburns » Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:04 am

As a real world CFI you have experience from both sides (real/sim). I for one would be interested in hearing about your experiences of a real world pilot flying on PE. How does it compare?

Just a general question. IF you were on a real flight with a student at the controls and the controller gave a turn "the long way around", what would be your reaction?

Would you tell the student that unless you were expecting a long way around turn to confirm?
wmburns
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:28 am

Re: Getting Trolled by ATC during I-5 practice run

Postby Keith Smith » Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:35 pm

Brian, no harm done, it sounds like we're on the same page. It's hard to tell via text the nature of posts when it can be interpreted in different ways. I'm glad you're enjoying the service.
Keith Smith
 
Posts: 9167
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:38 pm
Location: Pompton Plains, NJ

Re: Getting Trolled by ATC during I-5 practice run

Postby Aviatorbja » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:40 am

wmburns wrote:As a real world CFI you have experience from both sides (real/sim). I for one would be interested in hearing about your experiences of a real world pilot flying on PE. How does it compare?

Just a general question. IF you were on a real flight with a student at the controls and the controller gave a turn "the long way around", what would be your reaction?

Would you tell the student that unless you were expecting a long way around turn to confirm?


Very good question. I'm not sure what I would do in that situation. Keep in mind, I have not instructed since 1998. Back then, I probably would not have questioned it. In the RW, I've been vectored all over the place for no apparent reason. I always assumed it was for traffic, or for spacing. 99% of the time the turn direction/heading is as expected. Clearly, the pilot has the right to question any instruction given to him/her by the controller. This experience has taught me (as a pilot) to think about what the next call should be from ATC, and if drastically different perhaps a double check is in order.

As far as PE comparison to real world, I would say it is nearly identical. I have not detected ANY operational differences between the real world and PE. RW controllers generally talk faster and are harder to understand through the poor radios we had in our training aircraft (cessna 152's and 172's). The PE controllers are also friendlier and more helpful than the FAA guys in general. Friendliness and helpfulness being inversely proportional to how busy the controller is.
Brian Andonian
R/W: SEL, Commercial, CFI (expired)
Flight sim: Lancair Legacy, Turbine Duke N723BA
Aviatorbja
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:24 pm
Location: Plymouth, MI - USA

Re: Getting Trolled by ATC during I-5 practice run

Postby Aviatorbja » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:43 am

Keith Smith wrote:Brian, no harm done, it sounds like we're on the same page. It's hard to tell via text the nature of posts when it can be interpreted in different ways. I'm glad you're enjoying the service.

Keith,
Yes, for sure. Cheers.

-Brian
Brian Andonian
R/W: SEL, Commercial, CFI (expired)
Flight sim: Lancair Legacy, Turbine Duke N723BA
Aviatorbja
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:24 pm
Location: Plymouth, MI - USA


Return to ATC Recordings

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron