IFR FLYING how to?

[toosox]

I need some advice. I have been flying VFR for several months now, but I would like to start learning how to fly IFR. I am currently using XPlane 9 with full weather actived. In the last few weeks, I have not had any adverse weather other than high winds.

Before I joined PE, I did not worry about flying through clouds or other weather systems. But when I did go through clouds, I still experienced disorientation, even though I was sitting in my living room looking at monitors.

Now, as to my current problem. How do I fly total IFR without seeing out the windows and falling back into VFR flight? My first test piece was an IFR circuit, but I was able to see the runway from several miles out and at that point no longer relied on the instruments. I cannot wear a hood, I cannot adjust my cabin view for just the instruments (clicking on them becomes difficult), and just fogging out the view does not help either. Disorientation becomes very hard to deal with. How do you get around the disorientation? I realize this is just a simulation and I can crash and survive, except for the embarassment from the controlers laughing at me.

[Keith Smith]

Have you tried setting the weather to minimums (or below minimums) for the approach? That way, you'll be in IMC until the last second, if not indefinitely.

[toosox]

Just finished the circuit at John Wayne KSNA (offline). Took some advice and set the cloud cover to 1000 ft. Departed from 19R, climbed to 3000 at which point I was totally IMC. I had a lot of problems leveling the plan due to the before mentioned disorientation. Time from takeoff to first turn was 8 mintues. Turned toward Seal Beach and climbed to 5000. This time I had no problem as the disorientation had lessened. Flew out from Seal Beach and because of no ATC I went out 24 miles before turning to intercept the localizer. Then followed it in and again became disoriented regarding altitude. Picked up the glide slope after having to dive towards it at about 8 miles out. Got my profile set for the glide slope and remained there. Popped out of the cloud cover at around 2 miles and right on the center line.
Once I got out of the clouds, girlfriend told me to stop looking up for visual. Rode my back, she did. So, all in all, once I got into clouds and had no visual referrences, I had to concentrate on flying by the gauges, the disorientation disappeared until I looked up. Then it returned.
Anyone else having problems like this with the disorientation? My advice is don't look out the windows!
Next try will be on PE with the ATC, of course. It wasn't quite as difficult as I thought it was going to be, but it was an experience.

[Keith Smith]

Vectoring yourself for approaches isn't likely to yield a very useful training experience. If you're going to fly offline, you should probably fly the full approach, which is designed to allow the pilot to fly under their own navigation the entire time (that is in fact the goal of the I-6 rating).

1000ft ceiling are nowhere near the minimums for the approach. I'm not sure what your goal is, but precision minimums are generally 200-250ft AGL.

Disorientation is common in real life because of the physical sensations that can trick your vestibular system into thinking that one thing is happening when your instruments tell you something else. I haven't really heard of disorientation setting in for someone in a PC-based non-motion sim, though.

If you're trying to teach yourself how to fly IFR, that may not be the best approach. You would be well served doing some reading on building your instrument scan, and working on instrument interpretation, and then doing some flying with an instructor to practice those skills. Once you have the basics, THEN you can fly the sim and really polish those skills.

[toosox]

The training I-6 is beyond what I have learned. I have not yet finished I-4. I have not even looked at the others because I am trying to learn to walk before I run. I realize that the minimums are a lot lower than what I set for myself on that flight. The last flight that I did, I dropped the ceiling down to around 400 ft. and was successful online. That showed me that I can actually do it now with a live ATC.

Disorientation may not be the correct word, but it was the closest to what I was feeling. I know that my girlfriend can't watch videos of roller coasters on her computer because it makes her dizzy...and yes, disoriented.

You said that trying to teach yourself how to fly IFR is not the best approach and that I should read up on it, then fly with an instructor. I am not able to follow through with an instructor. First, I am diabetic and have had a couple of TIA's (mini-strokes). These are documented through the hospital so they are on record. I cannot pass the FAA medical. Taking lessons or going out with an instructor are not an option for me. This flight sim and PE are the closest I will ever get to flying with an ATC. The other online ATC systems are just not as accurate as PE. Before joining PE the only flying I had done was on FSX with a built in ATC, so I had not idea how air space worked or anything. I asked a few questions, did a lot of reading about air space, and basically taught myself how to fly VFR. I realize that learing IFR flight is going to be more difficult, but there is no reason that I cannot accomplish this as will with a little time and a lot of effort. I have gotten over my first hurdle, which is flying without being able to see out the windows. But I am sure I am going to have more questions. Some may be very simple for others, but I may not be able to find the answer. I just need the person who is answering me to understand that actual flight will never happen for me.
I know that I will make mistakes. That is part of the learning process.

[Keith Smith]

I will get back to you when I can. Lots to write, but unable right now. Technology is failing all around me right now.

[Piotr]

I have recently bought that book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Microsoft-Fligh ... 0764588222 . I'm not yet finished with reading but so far I can fully recommend it for serious sim flying. I'm thinking about purchasing some FAA handbooks as well.

[DaytonDave]

toosox:

I'd say the 'best' way to learn IFR is to fly 'right-seat' with someone else, in IMC/IFR. (I think it was mentioned to me in my VFR training ... years ago.) I didn't get any 'right-seat' opportunities and ended up getting my first IFR experiences (left-seat) in FSX AI controllers/flights.

I do see where in Multi-player FSX that you can have someone 'join' you in your plane, I havn't tried that yet. You may want to 'join' someone in their plane for IFR flights. I understand IFR can get 'busy' sometimes and a right-seater is very advantagous, even if they are a non-pilot (just to handle chart re-folding and whatnot). I'd assume you do have a 'cockpit management' scheme even if you're flying in a sim-world (note taking for readbacks as an example). I have not real IFR time, am only a 250hr VFR guy... 10 years out of currency now.

I havn't seen in PE (havn't been here long tho!) that you can pair up with others in a single plane...is it possible (anyone)?

Otherwise, I just checked in FSX and see that I can 'undock' my 'view' (drop-down menus), and drag that outside/window 'view' off to the side of my (one) monitor so I can't see it. Just leaving a little edge to click-on so I can again drag it back into view... if I want. The panel remains on-screen and operational... havn't 'flown' it yet... but it looks like it'll work to put black up in front of my 'windows', anyhow.

Dave (this is my 1st message post on PE!! Glad to be here!!)

[Keith Smith]

The FAA handbooks are very good and can be downloaded online at no charge...they're a terribly underutilized resource: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/

Thanks for the background, that's helpful. You said that you want to crawl before you walk, and I understand that, however, vectoring yourself for approaches is a little bit like running a marathon, to keep the analogy going.

I'd recommend reading the books, and then making use of the videos which are coming online as part of the training program...these will show you end to end flights in IMC. I'm hoping they'll be beneficial and will remove some of the mystery.

Dave, there are plans to add shared cockpit support to PE, but I don't anticipate tackling that until the end of Q1 2013. It's a relatively small modification that we need to make to the FSX pilot client to allow two people to use the existing Shared Cockpit functionality in FSX and then both connect to PilotEdge (one would need to be invisible to everyone, as well as a few other changes), but there are a lot of other things going on.

Regarding the disorientation, it may be helpful to perform some maneuvers by reference to instruments, backed up with a visual reference to the horizon, and then move towards not having a visual reference (either by setting weather to IMC, setting up a 3d cockpit view that doesn't have an outside visual, etc).

[DaytonDave]

I feel that toosox may be tring to say that when he gets 'disorientated' he may be referring to 'not knowing what to do next'... rather then the technical aviation reference of 'not knowing which way is up'. (or acting on a false sense of 'which way is up') The aviation 'disorientation' is generally only experienced in flight so it's not a problem in moving ground vehicles and henced discussed more often in avaition matters.

I don't want to assume that's what you're saying but... toosox.. does that sound more correct to you? This may be a point to change to a different topic, but I think just a little more experience in IFR routines, and I'll say cockpit management again, is a cure you're looking for.

Keith.. I took a quick glance at the video... and am looking forward to others!! (but, you know, you seem to make it all look soooooo EASY!) I know, it's all about knowing your aircraft. Actually, I just upgraded from FS2004 to FSX only to get the Cessna w/glass!! (well, maybe also, my '04 disk was intermittently failing to read too). Am 'building time' now... enjoying it... and want to get 'in the system' SOON. Although, I've been switching planes too... now I want that glass panel in a Maule! Seems I'll never get that proficient in any one plane with all the options available in this SimWorld. (To keep this 'on-topic' I'll just have to say that I generally remain in a constant state of disorientation with all the sim choices!!)