VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Questions and comments about the PE Pilot Training Program
Ryan B
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Re: VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Post by Ryan B »

I'm a controller at a class D airport. I'm also a pilot but not current.

My thought is that you're over complicating the whole thing.

If you have any question on what you're to be doing at any time while operating in a control environment, ASK for clarification. That specific notice is for real world ops, and is probably there for volume (when SNA gets busy with traffic). I agree with Reece - the controller isn't going to launch two aircraft at a point in time where you'd cut someone off on the other side. In that case they probably would say "Cessna 12345, John Wayne tower, turn LEFT, LEFT turn heading 330, runway 20L, cleared for takeoff." They'd enunciate the word left.

When pilots do things expected, life goes better for controllers. If you're instructed to do something and you cannot - just say unable and preferably state a reason.

I was training a guy on local (tower position) last year and radar ran a tight sequence between four planes. A bonanza was first and was doing a great job keeping his speed up. A global jet wasn't doing his job of slowing down. In hindsight we should have sent the global around for his failure to slow but my trainee told the bonanza to go around. The pilot went around but made a right 360 out of the blue. I was blown away and not expecting that. Had there been traffic on the downwind it would have been a more serious issue. Do things that air traffic expects and flying on a controlled environment wil be much smoother.

Consider you're operating on a simulation network. Not everything exactly how it is in real life.
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Talan2000
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Re: VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Post by Talan2000 »

Thanks for the additional perspectives/experiences.

Pieces, I'm with you that ATC and PIC must work hand in glove and that as Pilot In Command it is always and ultimately my responsibility to maintain safety of flight especially in VFR. My purpose in this is not to challenge ATC but to point out ambiguity in a search for clarity.I think all would agree there is ambiguity here.

HRutila, perhaps you are a helo bubba, and are thinking with that worldview, but there is no way as a fixed wing pilot I am accepting a departure clearance that requires me to turn "immediately upon liftoff" -- (at what 10 ft, 25ft, 50ft?) . Unless that giraffe I mentioned has broken out of his pen and is gamboling directly towards me on the runway :) Turning at the 350 agl -450agl I was at above the departure end of the rwy 20L was low enough for me. I'd note also that I was assigned an intersection takeoff to boot on this departure. No problem for the Bonanza, but less and less reaction time - and lo this is how the accident report gets written.

Another observation here is -- look how quickly we are now debating what the meaning of the word "is" is... what is "immediate", what does "should" mean, which sub sub-section of the FAR might apply if not contradicted by another sub-part. The goal has to be clarity, efficiency and safety. Where there is ambiguity it should be challenged -- how else did all these "hot spot" markings emerge for example.

So anyway, I'll slink away from the soap box grateful that nobody pointed out how truly awful my APPROACH into KONT was -- never mind the unintentionally awful departure (which of course wasn't my fault ;)

Todd
Pieces
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Re: VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Post by Pieces »

Yeah, there definitely is something to be said about the complexity of the regulations, procedures, documents, diagrams and what have you. Good discussion.
Reece Heinlein, PPL - IR, KMZZ
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Keith Smith
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Re: VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Post by Keith Smith »

Talon, any momentary ambiguity (for me at least) is resolved when you consider the fact that ATC instructions must be followed (ie, "fly heading"), in addition to the context in which things happen. The notion that you could fly a heading assigned by ATC and hit another departure from a parallel runway is a non-starter. The simple fact is, they wouldn't launch a 20L departure with a right turn to a 330 heading if it was going to result in a conflict with a 20R departure. They would either hold the 20R departure, delay your departure, or give you another heading, "fly heading 175, runway 20L cleared for takeoff..." then once the departure conflict is resolved, "turn right heading 330."

So, even if you're not aware of the rule that ATC instructions must be complied with, when you analyze the risk of following the instructions ("fly heading"), the traffic separation issue doesn't really exist. The tower is aware of the heading they've asked you to fly, and won't launch a conflicting departure from the parallel.

Certainly the most detailed V2 discussion I think we've ever seen :)
HRutila
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Re: VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Post by HRutila »

Talan2000 wrote:HRutila, perhaps you are a helo bubba, and are thinking with that worldview, but there is no way as a fixed wing pilot I am accepting a departure clearance that requires me to turn "immediately upon liftoff" -- (at what 10 ft, 25ft, 50ft?) . Unless that giraffe I mentioned has broken out of his pen and is gamboling directly towards me on the runway :) Turning at the 350 agl -450agl I was at above the departure end of the rwy 20L was low enough for me. I'd note also that I was assigned an intersection takeoff to boot on this departure. No problem for the Bonanza, but less and less reaction time - and lo this is how the accident report gets written.
If you're a Skywest pilot in Aspen, your CRJ is turning as soon as it gets off the ground, otherwise you're not a Skywest pilot in Aspen. We're not talking about Aspen though; I'm refuting your idea of "immediate" being defined as "at the departure end of the runway."

450' AGL is higher than a standard turning altitude for IFR operations regardless of aircraft type. 400' AGL is the standard turning altitude as Peter mentioned above.
Harold Rutila
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Talan2000
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Re: VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Post by Talan2000 »

Hey that's exciting for those amazing Skywest pilots dreaming of making it to the majors someday. I bet the guys who flew into Kai Tek would laugh at the 15 degree final offset at KSNA too. What's the rate of climb on one of those things I wonder. Compared to my tired c-152? As they say there are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots...

For a simple Texas country boy PPL like me turning within 5-6 seconds of liftoff is pretty darn immediate. And At least we can agree that my 350 agl estimate for the turn is less than "the standard ifr" 400 agl turn altitude which I guess kinda sorta does make it unusual and or less than typical. BTW How many low time rated pilots or one of your ppl or sport student pilots pilots do you recommend to routinely make such non immediate turns ? Should they practice that in their patterns? And of course it could have been 250 agl on the next one. Phew.

The main point I think is not to hit the giraffe on the runway in aspen or john Wayne, ok pilgrim ;) ?
Last edited by Talan2000 on Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Keith Smith
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Re: VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Post by Keith Smith »

Talan,

I soloed at Hayward Airport (KHWD). Pattern altitude for 28L was 650ft because of the nearby Oakland rwy 29 final and the Class C airspace. You also had to turn crosswind very quickly after takeoff to avoid penetrating the surface Class C. It happens.
Talan2000
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Re: VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Post by Talan2000 »

Keith, that's pretty neat. I wish that you had Hayward in your coverage area so I could practice my patterns there. Hey - maybe I'll plan a flight up there from KSNA today ! I'll make and immediate 50' agl RIGHT turn across 20R to head north :)

I do appreciate all the feedback. I have a ton to learn and appreciate the feedback. I haven't been this excited about a hobby in quite a long time.

Who knows how long my VFR 3 post mortem will become?:)

Todd "Talan2000"

N3298S in various incarnations
HRutila
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Re: VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

Post by HRutila »

Talan2000 wrote:BTW How many low time rated pilots or one of your ppl or sport student pilots pilots do you recommend to routinely make such non immediate turns ?
If I ever flew out of an airport that had an A/FD entry for offsetting 15 degrees at the departure end of the runway, we'd offset 15 degrees at the departure end of the runway. If we had a tower-assigned heading, we'd start the turn "speed and altitude permitting," normally at 400' AGL barring the presence of obstacles.
Harold Rutila
COMM-MEL/CFII
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