VFR TEST 2 Feedback - Help with Departure Error

[Talan2000]

Forgive the Double Post -- I just saw this sub-section:

Hi Pilots,

I just joined PE and am so pleased with it! Just amazing. Anyhow I just successfully completed my VFR 2 Test. In my mind it was pretty ugly - with lots of lessons learned -- but that's GREAT! (ie don't fly a new Bonanza where you can't work the @#$@#$ radio or NAV1/GPS in an area you have never flown in!) Just why I joined PE - to learn. And the stress sure felt real!

Anyway upon reviewing my notes of the flight I think there was a mistake made by the controller. I departed KSNA 20L and was directed to fly 330 at 2400. I duly took off from 20L and made a LEFT turn 15 degrees immediately at the end of the departure rwy 20L continuing in a left turn to 330.

During the climb I was told that I should have turned RIGHT to 330 (it is of course a shorter turn) but it does violate the notes posted about the airport from skyvector, Other Remarks:

VFR ACFT: TO AVOID OVERFLIGHT OF RY 20R: RY 20L ARR FLY FINAL AT 15 DEG ANGLE TO RY; RY 20L DEPS TURN 15 DEG LEFT AT DEP END OF RY. TO AVOID OVERFLIGHT OF RY 02L: RY 02R DEPS TURN 15 DEG RIGHT AT FREEWAY.

Since this is a VFR Test flight likely to be frequently repeated - I'd love to know what the right answer here is and figure out how to let the controller know-- it seems that one should turn LEFT as described in the remarks....

Can anyone shed some light on this for me? I got my PPL in 1988 and haven't flown in 15+ years so I have a lot to re-learn.

Thanks all!

Talan2000

[Peter Grey]

Hello,

The simple answer here is that ATC directions overrule the airport operating notes. You'll see this in a lot of places where ATC will ignore various airport operating notes. The most common is with regards to pattern direction.

The specific reference is a bit convoluted but here we go:

91.130 Operations in Class C Airspace

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section and § 91.129. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class C airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class C airspace area.

Not very helpful, but let's now to go 91.129

91.129 Operations in Class D Airspace

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§ 91.126 and 91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class D airspace area.

(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA.

Ok, there seems to be some more clarity here, the questions become is the "turn left 15 degree" note a "departure procedure established for that airport by the FAA".

The simple answer is no, even if you argue that it is an FAA departure procedure the general note of "otherwise required by ATC" (Compliance with an ATC instruction is a requirement per 91.123) would override that procedure. Which then brings the question of when should you turn and how should you turn.

The only reference to when to turn to a heading on departure is in regards to IFR departure procedures and states that the turn should be done at 400' AGL. You'll find no specific VFR guidance. Some will argue that you should turn at TPA per the traffic pattern section of the AIM. Others will argue that the 400' IFR rule should be used. Either one is generally going to work as far as ATC is concerned.

As to how your departure instructions state "Fly Heading 330". Per the Pilot Controller Glossary the definition of Fly Heading is:

FLY HEADING (DEGREES)- Informs the pilot of the heading he/she should fly. The pilot may have to turn to, or continue on, a specific compass direction in order to comply with the instructions. The pilot is expected to turn in the shorter direction to the heading unless otherwise instructed by ATC.

So ATC telling you to fly heading 330 overrides the operating notes for the airport and specifies that you should turn in the shortest direction (right). For the period before you turn to that heading (immediately after takeoff) you can follow the procedure and do a 15 degree offset, and that will be fine. The key is that when it's time to comply with ATC instructions (at 400' or TPA), those override the airport operating notes.

That should answer it, let me know if you have any follow-on questions.

[Talan2000]

Peter,

Awesome - thanks for the immediate reply. I love that PE has a QA Officer.

In a nutshell - "obey ATC". Aviate Navigate Communicate. Got it.

However...hold on a second. Without wanting to get litigious - what the heck constitutes governing ATC? And why would the FAA published Airport/Facilities Directory which contains various wonderful and mandatory information suddenly become optional? This isn't some pub thrown together by the airport manager on a Saturday - it comes from the FAA.

To wit:
(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA.

So, if it doesn't apply, Why doesn't the FAA A/FD carry the same weight as an FAA Approach Plate or SID? At a minimum I would expect ATC to AMEND the standard departure (turn left 15 deg) or to direct pilots to Turn RIGHT to 330 (overrulling standard departure procedure). They gave no guidance at all and the only guidance extant was the turn left immediately at departure end of the runway. The turn left HAS to be the default...

Also - to me - turning left 15 degrees before turning RIGHT back to 330 is like trying to be 1/2 pregnant. Doesn't make any sense. If the purpose of the A/FD directive is to avoid overflying the parallel runway then turning left 15 degrees for 30 seconds doesn't make any difference -- 300 AGL vs 600AGL etc.

But I'm a low time PPL with no cloud card and will of course yield to higher authority...reluctantly

[Talan2000]

To sum up.

I think there is a procedural error here. If there is a standard departure guidance in the FAA's A/FD it should be the default rule.

Can ATC overrule it? Absolutely.

But should they be required to give that direction (literally). Absolutely.

The "general guidance" to turn in the shortest direction has to be overridden by the specific A/FD departure guidance to turn left 15 degrees IMMMEDIATELY at the end of the runway. It's almost a dire warning -- I've never seen anything similar for a VFR departure not immediately heading into an active volcano

[HRutila]

When you're flying the pattern on Runway 20L -- specifically the upwind and final legs -- they want you to offset by 15 degrees. ATC won't say that. The book says that, so that's the expectation.

[Peter Grey]

To sum up.

I think there is a procedural error here. If there is a standard departure guidance in the FAA's A/FD it should be the default rule.

Can ATC overrule it? Absolutely.

We are in agreement here. The A/FD departure procedure is the default and ATC can override it.

The "general guidance" to turn in the shortest direction has to be overridden by the specific A/FD departure guidance to turn left 15 degrees IMMMEDIATELY at the end of the runway. It's almost a dire warning

The A/FD does NOT say immediately. The exact quote of the procedure from the A/FD is :

Rwy 20L departures turn 15º left at departure end of rwy. To avoid overflights of Rwy 02L, Rwy 02R departures turn 15º right at freeway.

It's not a dire warning (which is what Immediately can mean), but simply a procedure to handle departures from close parallel runways.

I disagree with the overridden part of your statement. The Federal Regulations require the opposite.

(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA.

You can't simply take part of a regulation without looking at the whole regulation. I'll admit that I clipped non-relevant parts in my discussion, so here is the 100% complete 91.129 (which we have both posted from). I'll bold the parts we are both looking at to make it easier to read.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with Secs. 91.126 and 91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class D airspace area.
(b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight, as appropriate.
(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those
communications while within that airspace.
(2) Departing flight. Each person--
(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class D airspace area; or
(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.
(d) Communications failure. Each person who operates an aircraft in a Class D airspace area must maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area.
(1) If the aircraft radio fails in flight under IFR, the pilot must comply with Sec. 91.185 of the part.
(2) If the aircraft radio fails in flight under VFR, the pilot in command may operate that aircraft and land if--
(i) Weather conditions are at or above basic VFR weather minimums;
(ii) Visual contact with the tower is maintained; and
(iii) A clearance to land is received.
[(e) Minimum altitudes when operating to an airport in Class D airspace. (1) Unless required by the applicable distance-from-cloud criteria, each pilot operating a large or turbine-powered airplane must enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of at least 1,500 feet above the elevation of the airport and maintain at least 1,500 feet until further descent is required for a safe landing.
(2) Each pilot operating a large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway served by an instrument approach procedure with vertical guidance, if the airplane is so equipped, must:
(i) Operate that airplane at an altitude at or above the glide path between the published final approach fix and the decision altitude (DA), or decision height (DH), as applicable; or
(ii) If compliance with the applicable distance-from-cloud criteria requires glide path interception closer in, operate that airplane at or above the glide path, between the point of interception of glide path and the DA or the DH.
(3) Each pilot operating an airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual approach slope indicator must maintain an altitude at or above the glide path until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.
(4) Paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section do not prohibit normal bracketing maneuvers above or below the glide path that are conducted for the purpose of remaining on the glide path.]
(f) Approaches. Except when conducting a circling approach under Part 97 of this chapter or unless otherwise required by ATC, each pilot must--
(1) Circle the airport to the left, if operating an airplane; or
(2) Avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft, if operating a helicopter.
(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA.
(2) Unless otherwise required by the prescribed departure procedure for that airport or the applicable distance from clouds criteria, each pilot of a turbine-powered airplane and each pilot of a large airplane must climb to an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface as rapidly as practicable.
(h) Noise abatement. Where a formal runway use program has been established by the FAA, each pilot of a large or turbine-powered airplane assigned a noise abatement runway by ATC must use that runway. However, consistent with the final authority of the pilot in command concerning the safe operation of the aircraft as prescribed in Sec. 91.3(a), ATC may assign a different runway if requested by the pilot in the interest of safety.
(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC. A clearance to "taxi to" the takeoff runway assigned to the aircraft is not a clearance to cross that assigned takeoff runway, or to taxi on that
runway at any point, but is a clearance to cross other runways that intersect the taxi route to that assigned takeoff runway. A clearance to "taxi to" any point other than an assigned takeoff runway is clearance to cross all runways that intersect the taxi route to that point.

Note part a. It says that compliance with this section is mandatory UNLESS otherwise authorized or required by ATC. Receiving a heading from ATC constituents a requirement per 91.123 (listed below).

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
(c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.
(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.
(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control purposes

So, if it doesn't apply, Why doesn't the FAA A/FD carry the same weight as an FAA Approach Plate or SID?

Simply put because the A/FD is not part of the regulations while FAA instrument procedures are. FAA instrument procedures are governed by part 97 of the FARs. Within part 97 you will find this in 97.20 (b):

Standard instrument procedures are associated supporting data adopted by the FAA and documented on FAA Forms 8260-3, 8260-4, 8260-5. Weather takeoff minimums are documented on FAA form 8260-15A. These forms are incorporated by reference. [clipped approval to do this and several reg citations allowing it]

Form 8260 relates to the establishment of various instrument procedures. Specifically:

8260-3 = Instrument Approach Procedure (Precision)
8260-4 = Instrument Approach Procedure (Radar)
8260-5 = Instrument Approach Procedure (Non-Precision)
8260-15A = FAA Obstacle Departure Procedures

You'll find no incorporation of the A/FD into federal regulations. Should you follow A/FD guidance, YES. Does it overrule federal regulations requiring otherwise, No. Here's another example of where ATC can overrule the A/FD. The A/FD for SNA says to make left closed traffic for runway 20L, I think we can agree that if ATC says to fly right closed traffic for runway 20L that this would overrule the A/FD.

Also - to me - turning left 15 degrees before turning RIGHT back to 330 is like trying to be 1/2 pregnant. Doesn't make any sense. If the purpose of the A/FD directive is to avoid overflying the parallel runway then turning left 15 degrees for 30 seconds doesn't make any difference -- 300 AGL vs 600AGL etc.

I agree, it is a bit silly. It would ensure compliance with both the A/FD and ATC at the appropriate points, but otherwise doesn't help things.

At a minimum I would expect ATC to AMEND the standard departure (turn left 15 deg) or to direct pilots to Turn RIGHT to 330 (overrulling standard departure procedure). They gave no guidance at all and the only guidance extant was the turn left immediately at departure end of the runway. The turn left HAS to be the default...

The ATC handbook (FAA Order 7110.65) doesn't require this. Per the Pilot Controller Glossary if no direction is specified you should turn in the quickest direction. The reason we don't specify direction is in case of a runway switch.

The purpose of the Pilot Controller Glossary is:

This Glossary was compiled to promote a common understanding of the terms used in the Air Traffic Control system.

While not required to be used by pilots (note that it is part of the AIM which states "The AIM is made available solely to assist pilots in executing their responsibility as required by other publications"), it IS required to be used by controllers (as it is included in FAA Order 7110.65 which is mandatory for controllers to comply with). Therefore following that guidance will constitute complying with an ATC clearance as required by FAR 91.123. Note that FAR 91.123 stated that if there is confusion over a clearance you should clarify that with ATC. In this case if you aren't sure which way to turn ask ATC and we will let you know.

To answer the couple of other questions I didn't get to in the main part of my reply:

what the heck constitutes governing ATC?

I'm not sure what you are asking here.

And why would the FAA published Airport/Facilities Directory which contains various wonderful and mandatory information suddenly become optional

It's not mandatory as it's not a regulation. Note that a couple parts of the A/FD are mandatory because they are repeated in various regulations (this mainly relates to traffic pattern direction), other parts are needed to comply with other regulations (such as runway distances), and other parts are on topics that the FAA doesn't choose to regulate (such as the hours when fuel is provided at an airport). Note that I am NOT saying don't use the A/FD (I think it's a great tool that's underutilized), just that it's not the end all be all.

Generally the A/FD doesn't include things that require "compliance" from a pilot (except as noted above),. This departure procedure is a bit of an anomaly to be honest (which is why there isn't really a clear answer in all of this). The NTSB website is acting up or else I'd try to find you a legal decision on all of this.

This isn't some pub thrown together by the airport manager on a Saturday - it comes from the FAA

Comes from the FAA and being made by the FAA are separate things. Most information in a A/FD comes from the airport manager and is simply compiled by the FAA. From the legend:

This directory is a listing of data on record with the FAA on public–use airports, military airports and selected private–use airports
specifically requested by the Department of Defense (DoD) for which a DoD Instrument Approach Procedure has been published in the
U.S. Terminal Procedures Publication.

But I'm a low time PPL with no cloud card and will of course yield to higher authority...reluctantly

Nothing wrong with asking questions. So you know who I am beyond the PE QA guy, my flying based credentials are an ATP with ratings in AMEL, ASEL, ASES, Glider (and a type rating in everyone's favorite* airliner, the CRJ). I'm also a gold seal CFI/II/MEI (with a little over 2000 hours dual given in aircraft and FTD's), I've also been a part 141 check instructor. Note that doesn't mean I'm right, make your own judgement based on what I posted above.

Please post if you have more questions/comments.

* - May not be true

[Keith Smith]

Wow, above and beyond on that one, Peter, nice work.

I think it's also important to consider the context of some of the guidance. About the only time you're going to take off at SNA without an assigned heading in a fixed wing aircraft is if you're doing pattern work. To allow the possibility of pattern work to take place on 20L/2R safely, and largely independently of the operations that take place on 20R/2L, they have included the 15 degree offset in the AFD for departures and arrivals.

Take the case where you're departing the field on an assigned heading that takes you through the parallel runway extended center line. You can reasonably assume that your departure has been well-coordinated between the west and east tower positions, and that when you turn right to a heading of 330, you're not going to become a hood ornament for a departing 737.

Also, there absolutely is precedent for ATC instructions trumping published procedures. Even when you are flying a SID (which carries a lot more weight than a heading in an AFD), if ATC tells you to fly a heading...you fly the heading.

This is a great discussion, very good stuff!

[Talan2000]

Wow, awesome, what a great discussion.

The Prequel to my Response from the end: "I do sincerely appreciate the level of effort you put into this and based on my observation the level of effort you put into your job as a whole."

Now, Let me try to boil it down a bit:

We Agree:
We both agree ATC can override the A/FD departure directive.
We both agree that if ATC had said RIGHT TURN to 330, maintain 2400 there would be no ambiguity.

I think we both agree: " This departure procedure is a bit of an anomaly to be honest (which is why there isn't really a clear answer in all of this)"

I think we can BOTH agree that when giving clearances for the VFR test - and more importantly in real life - indicating turn direction in this case - where there is a specific written guidance that contravenes "common practice" to turn the shortest distance, the controller should state clearly his/her expectations if they contradict the clear written guidance in the A/FD.

We Disagree:
We disagree about the A/FD departure guidance itself, apparently. You're right it doesn't say "turn immediately" it does say.

"VFR Acft: to avoid overflight of Rwy 20R, Rwy 20L arrival fly final at 15º angle to rwy*, Rwy 20L departures turn 15º left at departure end of rwy

Ok, so to say turning at the end of a 2887 ft rwy isn't "immediate" is another distinction without a difference here. Turning at the end of the rwy is an immediate turn. (I'm pretty sure there is a tall giraffe in a pen or an active volcano right there that you need to avoid )

But seriously, keep in mind, the whole reason they are doing this is to keep VFR planes OUT of the way of the big boys likely/possibly/could may be/ operating on the parallel runway. Everything points to staying AWAY from crossing the parallel runway. They went to specific trouble to keep "VFR" Pilots out of there -- clearly that illustrates their intention and which overrules the "glossary" or the very well understood but NOT mandatory guidance that pilots "should" turn the shortest distance in making a turn.

Another distinction without a difference in this context is "Comes from the FAA and being made by the FAA are separate things". We're not talking about the phone numbers for the FBO, we're talking about a departure directive -- Rwy 20L departures turn 15º left at departure end of rwy .

And and a Case Study:

You proposed one solution to "split the baby" (which we both reject is to turn left 15 then turn back right to 330. Non starter. So - what should a pilot do here with a reciprocal of the rwy heading ( and we can add or subtract 1 or 2 degrees if the rwy heading is not exactly 020 if you want):

CLR: Fly heading 020 (to Chino), maintain 2400"...

So does the pilot in command turn left or right. (hint) He has a/fd guidance to turn left.

Or what if that turn is there for an Obstacle (remember that giraffe in the pen?) not just a desire to avoid being the hood ornament of Keith's 737? How is a PIC to know when he can disregard a written departure directive if sometimes it's in effect and sometimes it's not without clear ATC guidance saying it is or isn't in effect?

Ok, I'm tired and I do sincerely appreciate the level of effort you put into this and based on my observation the level of effort you put into your job as a whole.

Anyway - I wish I could figure out how to actually KSNA tower and talk to a real controller about this - surely it must come up. And if I have the guts to fly it again you can be sure, as the pilot in command, I will request clarification -- "confirm RIGHT Turn to 330" from tower.

Todd

[Pieces]

A couple of quick observations as a pilot. The controllers are working together. They wouldn't launch an aircraft from 20L with an instruction to turn to 330 at the same time another aircraft taking off 20R. While as a pilot you must be on the lookout for other planes at all times, it is a reasonable expectation to turn to the course ATC has given you without worrying that they are turning you into the path of another aircraft (or an obstacle).

Secondly, by turning the long way around you're going against expectations. Controller language is pretty precise. When a controller says "turn to XXX" they expect you to turn by the shortest distance. By making the long turn you could cause issues. If the controller wanted you to turn the long way he would have specified the direction and probably pointed it that it was the long way around.

Your case study is a non-starter. You will never be given the instruction to fly heading 020 on departure at SNA (assuming the 20's are active). There are several standard departures for VFR aircraft, depending on the direction the aircraft is heading.

I think the confusion is stemming from the question of authority. If all you have is some written guidance on how to depart an airport certainly follow it. But if you are under active control by ATC, ATC's instructions take precedence.

I suspect that if you did phone up KSNA tower and ask about departure instructions you'd find that PE is pretty spot on.

[HRutila]

An immediate turn would be turning as soon as you lift off. That's what the air carriers at Aspen (ASE) do because they have an opposite direction operation going on 24/7. A turn at the departure end of the runway is not immediate because you can (and should) be airborne well prior to the departure end of the runway in aircraft types that can use 20L.