Thats interesting to know. How does an out of town pilot know that the voluntary communication with a traffic service count as 2 way communication with a contained Class D Tower?
Honestly I figured the AIM would cover this, ends up it doesn't (that I can find). So the reference is going to be from the ATC manual (FAA Order 7110.65).
From section 2-1-16:
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower
for transit authorization when you are providing radar
traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter
another facility’s airspace.
NOTE−
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.
That's the best I can do on a reference.
Peter Grey
PilotEdge Director of Quality Assurance and Operations peter@pilotedge.net
The notion of talking with the TRSA controller and being worried about the Delta that it houses seems odd to me. Those controllers are in close communication. The most common operation they're handling is inbounds and outbounds for the primary airport. Seems like a non-issue to me. You're going to get handed from the TRSA guy to the tower with plenty of time, and if they don't, you won't get violated for it because ATC was supposed to coordinate the transition in any case.
Keith Smith wrote:The notion of talking with the TRSA controller and being worried about the Delta that it houses seems odd to me. Those controllers are in close communication. The most common operation they're handling is inbounds and outbounds for the primary airport. Seems like a non-issue to me. You're going to get handed from the TRSA guy to the tower with plenty of time, and if they don't, you won't get violated for it because ATC was supposed to coordinate the transition in any case.
This 100%
I wish I had rw socal flying experience but from my ATC experience and PE experience I think you would be able to transition ANY class C or D in socal without ever calling the tower as long as you're being provided radar service.
By handing off to tower do you mean for example a pilot was too close to the class C or D so radar just shipped them to tower right away? Or do you mean what Harold was saying above? I'm flying along to xyz airport with the approach controller, he ships me to tower, you're saying I have to call the tower before entering the C or D? Because I disagree with that if it's what you're saying.
Ryan, if you're with the SOCAL TRSA controller inbound to land at PSP, the way the regulations are currently written, you are required to contact PSP Tower prior to entering their Class D airspace. There is no exemption to the regs contained within themselves nor the AIM to do otherwise.
The reality is there is no precedent for this discussion because this isn't typically a real-world issue. The TRSA approach controls I've flown with always handed me off to tower well before the Class D boundary; the same can be said for non-TRSA approach controls, whether co-located with the tower or not. And if pilots feel they are getting too close, they'll alert the controller. In that case I'm sure approach would pick up the phone and tell tower "My bad!"
But as a CFI, if I were flying in this area, I'd ensure we make contact with the tower prior to entering the Class D, mainly because this is a position that can be backed up should the FAA send me a letter about it later. Let's say I don't call until I'm 3 miles away from PSP, and some multi-engine plane in the pattern tells the tower he had a near miss with me. That would result in some paperwork and unpleasant dealings with the FAA, in which case my position of "Well SOCAL's TRSA controller coordinated me inbound" would not work. When it comes to FAA enforcement action it's always the pilot's compliance with published regs that is relevant -- not compliance with the unwritten rules of the air.
I just think pilots think we are out to get them.... and there certainly MAY be some controllers who want to get you but for the younger crews coming in these days to staff facilities - we like to provide a great service and typically will help when we can. I'd like to think the younger generation is ready to provide a friendlier FAA (maybe that's an oxymoron!) I've been with the FAA for over seven years and can count the number of times I've told someone to call the tower on one hand. And two of those were serious safety issues that the pilot needed to be aware of so they wouldn't kill themselves or someone else next time. One time was a pilot deviation that created a operational error for the controller. I just don't want people on here thinking flying in the USA is all about covering your ass, it's about being safe while having fun imho.
The era of having "just a conversation" with a pilot ended with the MOR program. The end result is many controllers will not point out minor, fixable pilot errors on the frequency because they don't want to file paperwork, or face a review when someone discovers they did not file paperwork. The other end result is gullible pilots who call the tower, give them their name, admit to being PIC, and face a FSDO investigation about a week later. It's a very unfortunate culture that HQ has set up for us.
Any attempt to violate the pilot is going to call into question the actions of the radar controller. I think it would be a pretty strong defense as a pilot to say, "I was aware of the clause in the 7110.65 regarding the requirement for the radar controller to coordinate my entry into the PSP Delta and had reasonably assumed that had been done."
Yes the FAR says you must be in communication with the controlling agency, but if the controller regs state that the guy you're currently talking to is supposed to coordinate with the controlling agency, then I think you're covered from a practical standpoint. Harold, I understand where you're coming from on a 100% academic level, but if you connect the dots, it doesn't add up.
Every single time I have queried a controller to verify that he's coordinated my Delta transition, I always get a "yep", sometimes followed by a sigh or something else to indicate that OF COURSE they have, that's what they have to do. It's now to the point where I don't ask.
Now, if you're on the radar freq, suspecting you've been forgotten about and there might be a SAFETY issue because you're not with the tower, and you're going to rip up their pattern, a quick, "did you want <callsign> over to tower?" does the job.