GPS Approach Peculiarities

Questions and comments about the PE Pilot Training Program
Talan2000
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GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by Talan2000 »

Hi guys,

I've been playing around with approaches in the vicinity of KSBA recently and set myself up for the KCMA GPS 8 (circling to land 26). flying the default 172 with no autopilot is something of a handful for me and it showed. Poor airmanship aside, upon post landing review, I think I may have flown the approach illegally and I want to see if that is the consensus of more experienced IFR rated pilots.

I planned my route to go direct to DEANO (that's amore?). Since I was given DIRECT Deano I wasn't technically on the V27 Airway so I got to disregard the "Procedure NA for V27 Eastbound" note. First peculiarity (deviation?).

Anyway, 90 degree right turn south out of DEANO to HATLI ensues. When I briefed the approach I Read "No PT" from this FEEDER Fix and interpreted that to mean no PT/ HOLD to turn to Final approach course 073. Another 90 degree turn left to 073 and FAC.

Having hand flown those somewhat ugly turns, I'm thinking that maybe that's not what the FAA really wants you to be doing...

So, should I have entered the hold at HATLI to set up for 073 FAC. It seems kind of pointless to turn RIGHT ~ 90 degrees to hold vs turning LEFT~ 90 degrees to the FAC. And after having pondered it some more I really can't convince myself what the FAA wants me to do with this approach - especially if you are coming down from DEANO.

Can a CFI/rated pilot enlighten me?

Oh, as an aside I filed KWANG DEANO and that was modified into KWANG CMA...I'm pretty sure I don't have to file to a VOR, any ideas why my intersection got axed on the routing?

Thanks

Todd

http://peaware.pilotedge.net/flight.cfm?id=101168
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Keith Smith
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Re: GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by Keith Smith »

DEANO is not a feeder fix, it's the IAF. The segment is labelled NoPT so you wouldn't fly the HILPT at HATLI. There is no wiggle room on that.

You were assigned KWANG CMA for your route because the TEC route for SBA to CMA is shown here: http://myflightroute.com/tecsub.php?sta ... A&type=%25
stevekirks
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Re: GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by stevekirks »

Oh Todd....the TEC Route Monster has eaten you!

I'm wondering why you would circle to land 26. Did you mean when practicing you would enter the traffic pattern to land on 26?

Steve
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Keith Smith
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Re: GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by Keith Smith »

FWIW, if you check the KCDW RNAV RWY 22, I was recently cleared direct JIRBO with a 90 degree intercept angle, doing 200+ over the ground. The intermediate segment is 6.2nm on that approach, whereas it was 10.0nm on the approach you pointed out, so there was even less room to get aligned with the course prior to the FAF.

If you'd like to see video of that approach, it's available in the Real World IFR program. :)

My point is that there is no reason to be uncomfortable with the approach from DEANO, and definitely no reason to suspect that you should fly the HILPT when the segment is labeled "NoPT".
Pieces
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Re: GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by Pieces »

90 degree turns on RNAV approaches are common, they're actually designed that way. http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1505/pdf/05064R22.PDF for example. It's called a "Terminal Arrival Area" you can read more in the AIM, 5-4-5 paragraph d.
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kullery
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Re: GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by kullery »

Pieces wrote:90 degree turns on RNAV approaches are common, they're actually designed that way.
I assume "Procedure NA for arrivals at DEANO via V27 eastbound" is because that would require a 96 degree turn. I'm still not clear if Todd was on V27. I understand that he was given "direct DEANO", but PEaware seems to indicate that he was given that instruction after reaching KWANG. Isn't he still arriving at DEANO on V27?

And if that is true, is the error Todd's for requesting the approach, Peter's for clearing it (I can't believe I suggested such a thing), or not an error at all?

EDIT: I now talked myself into believing that he was NOT technically on V27. He would only be on V27 if "direct DEANO" had been issued as "after KWANG, direct DEANO".
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wmburns
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Re: GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by wmburns »

kullery wrote:I assume "Procedure NA for arrivals at DEANO via V27 eastbound" is because that would require a 96 degree turn. I'm still not clear if Todd was on V27. I understand that he was given "direct DEANO", but PEaware seems to indicate that he was given that instruction after reaching KWANG. Isn't he still arriving at DEANO on V27?

And if that is true, is the error Todd's for requesting the approach, Peter's for clearing it (I can't believe I suggested such a thing), or not an error at all?
I had the same thought as kullery on this. How it's legal to even fly this approach from KWANG? KWANG is most certainly on V27. KWANG to DEANO is East bound on V27. But the key may lie in the authority of ATC verses what happens when a pilot is simply assigned a named procedure to fly. When acting under a direct instruction of ATC, the guy behind the scope is managing flows to ensure safety.

I was monitoring PE last night and heard some of the radio exchanges between a pilot who was unable to navigate direct to KWANG. Apparently there was another plane in the area also needing to go through KWANG and this was creating a "traffic jam". Same pilot? Not sure. Perhaps the navigation error was so "gross" that it was only happen stance the flight path was near KWANG.
Last edited by wmburns on Thu May 07, 2015 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
stevekirks
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Re: GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by stevekirks »

I see this after thinking about the TEC route and real life:

If you're KWANG CMA for the cleared route and you take off from Camarillo if you had the departure procedure assigned, then you would end the departure at GOLET the flight from there to KWANG would be V27. Would the real life controller even have let you get to DEANO? The procedure also shows that HATLI could be an IAF so here's an interesting question:

Could you be assigned the approach from KWANG:

"N123AB, you are 8 miles from HALTI, turn right heading 130, cleared RNAV GPS runway 8 approach"

Boy oh boy this is a juicy one...
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Ryan B
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Re: GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by Ryan B »

Should have just asked for the approach from HATLI. "10 mi from HATLI, cleared direct, cross HATLI at 3000, cleared RNAV Ry 8 approach straight in" (or "cleared straight in RNAV Ry 8 approach depending on who you ask - I've done and heard them both irl)

If the controller was vectoring to final they'd give you distance from the FAF or the airport, not HATLI.
"N12345, 10 mi from DYLAN, turn right heading 100, maintain (MVA) until established on final approach course, cleared RNAV Ry 8 approach CMA"
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Keith Smith
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Re: GPS Approach Peculiarities

Post by Keith Smith »

Ryan,

Small point, but the distance from HATLI is not required in the clearance since he's not being vectored to the final app course, correct? Only the altitude would be required since he'd be on a random route to HATLI.
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