Question about the V-2

[Justin Lerner]

Short form: Is it absolutely necessary to request flight following from SNA clearance prior to departure, or can we request it once airborne and outside the Class C? Is it possible to get a different heading out of SNA when requesting flight following?

Long form: I took the V-2 exam today and got a pass, but when I was in the planning phase for the flight I saw what I felt was a perfectly viable VFR route that is kind of negated when you request flight following on the ground at SNA. When you pick up the advisories from John Wayne clearance, assuming a 20L/R departure, they're going to assign you a 330 heading, right? Well, what if I'd prefer a downwind departure to follow the Costa Mesa Freeway (adjacent to SNA) north (at an appropriate altitude to stay clear of SNA arrivals) to where it intersects the Riverside Freeway, then turn east to track the Santa Ana River to Prado Dam (VPLPD), from which it's a direct north heading to ONT?

Obviously there's more than one way to skin a cat, though I feel this routing is slightly more frugal from a realistic planning perspective and is a lot more direct than putting VFR departures over Mile Square Park (VPLMS) which is approximately where the 330 heading out of a 20L/R departure takes you before handing you off to SoCal; or when SoCal clears you to resume VFR. It's not really a big deal to pick up the Santa Ana River from there (depending on the vis you might even see as far as the Dam at 2,400' or above), but it does add a few minutes to the flight and thus you're burning more fuel than may be necessary. Obviously it's just a sim and we're not paying for the fuel, but I still aim to be conservative and pragmatic in my flight planning.

Example of the above routing on SkyVector (shortened link): http://bit.ly/1SZPZgK

For contrast, the route I ended up flying on the V-2: http://peaware.pilotedge.net/flight.cfm?id=108963

Additional remarks: Yes, I realize it would be just as easy to track the Paradise (PDZ) VOR inbound (as Keith Smith recommends in the outline) rather than looking for highways and such, but I honestly don't find that as fun and maybe a little contrary to the spirit of VFR flying (a/k/a looking out the window and figuring out where you're going). For safety's sake, I did have PDZ tuned in on the Nav anyway as a redundant contingency should I have lost any of my predetermined landmarks, however without a DME I would have had to request radar vectors at some point if I never recovered my bearings since the suggested routing on the PE training site says to turn northbound 14 miles from the VOR.

Disclaimer: Not a real world pilot, no actual experience, just trying to wrap my head around why this is done the way it's done.

[TheMadDocMD]

Quick answer before my shift; Being that SNA is Class C - you will be talking to departure and assigned that heading no matter if you are requesting flight following outside the airspace or not. At least that's how it works at my Class C. There really isn't a way around those headings at bigger airports as it ensures our, air traffic, separation requirements we have in Class C airspace etc.

[Pieces]

The problem is you're not flying in a vacuum. There are other departures out of KSNA and other airports with other traffic flows all over the place. You're route might be more efficient for you, a single plane, but you don't get to dictate the traffic flows for everyone. The departure gateways are designed with all of that traffic in mind.

[snglecoil]

Hey, Justin. Check out this link. KSNA Pilot Information Guide This really helps to visualize what you'll hear as departure/arrival instructions out of John Wayne. Like has already been said, out of a class C airport, you can expect to be assigned a heading for traffic separation. Since your original plan has you following the major highways for course guidance, being given a heading that takes you off that plan is not comfortable. But even if you don't know exactly what heading you will be given at a particular airport, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a couple of alternate plans to get you to that first checkpoint. For my V2 I was even asked if I wanted the 330 or 080 heading. Anyway, good idea having PDZ dialed in as a backup. Looks like you did fine.

[Justin Lerner]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! It all makes sense now.

Hey, Justin. Check out this link. KSNA Pilot Information Guide This really helps to visualize what you'll hear as departure/arrival instructions out of John Wayne. Like has already been said, out of a class C airport, you can expect to be assigned a heading for traffic separation. Since your original plan has you following the major highways for course guidance, being given a heading that takes you off that plan is not comfortable. But even if you don't know exactly what heading you will be given at a particular airport, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a couple of alternate plans to get you to that first checkpoint. For my V2 I was even asked if I wanted the 330 or 080 heading. Anyway, good idea having PDZ dialed in as a backup. Looks like you did fine.

Thank you for the link and additional input, very helpful.

[snglecoil]

Ha it has been a while since I read the PDF I linked. Found this interesting

Pilots not requesting radar service beyond the surface area of the Class C airspace may state “local” when requesting their departure route.

...Just becareful when asking for the "El Toro Local departure" and not the "El Toro Loco departure" El Toro What?? Sorry, that's what quality time with my 8-year-old son does

[wmburns]

I might be missing something but isn't part of the the goal of the V2 to "talk" to ATC, get clearance instructions, and comply with those instructions?

Isn't it a fact of life that depending upon the airport, traffic, and weather could affect the actual clearance given. As pilots part of our job is to learn to adapt to those changes. As others have said, ATC is aware of the "big picture" and take this into consideration when issuing clearance.

And even if ATC isn't taking the "big picture" into account, us pilots still have to follow the instructions.

[Justin Lerner]

I might be missing something but isn't part of the the goal of the V2 to "talk" to ATC, get clearance instructions, and comply with those instructions?

Isn't it a fact of life that depending upon the airport, traffic, and weather could affect the actual clearance given. As pilots part of our job is to learn to adapt to those changes. As others have said, ATC is aware of the "big picture" and take this into consideration when issuing clearance.

And even if ATC isn't taking the "big picture" into account, us pilots still have to follow the instructions.

Oh absolutely, and yes I understand the point of the V-2 is to navigate the Class C which means you're in contact with ATC anyways. My plan wouldn't have foregone flight following altogether, I just would have requested it in the air versus on the ground prior to departure.

[tngarner]

Class C you will always get it on the ground. You can say negative FF but you are still talking to them until they cut you loose.

class D in RW I have not found an airport yet that will set it up for you on the ground. To the point I no longer ask and just get it in the air. In PE they Really want you to get it on the ground so you ask for it even at Class D on the ground when on PE.

[gavink42]

Class D in RW I have not found an airport yet that will set it up for you on the ground. To the point I no longer ask and just get it in the air.

Come to KOLV, where flight following is given to every flight that asks for it! Plus, I've never heard the word "unable" from the Memphis TRACON or ZME controllers!

Oh, and the local BBQ is great too!

- Gavin