V-03 Test Problems

Questions and comments about the PE Pilot Training Program
Anthony Santanastaso
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Re: V-03 Test Problems

Post by Anthony Santanastaso »

Caesar wrote:I don't know what you're talking about. I did not file a flight plan, and I DID fly to the destination I requested from Clearance Delivery. That was my point: Why did the Clearance Delivery controller approve me to take the V-03 test, then not tell me that landing at Santa Monica would void the test when I requested that as my destination 10 seconds later?
Just to clear up something, you never said SMO airport - you said SMO VOR (if this was you). I listened again to the tapes, since I believe I had worked you on non-radar. It's at 1:27 of the 1400 recording (2-15). Please know that even if you had filed a VFR flight plan that does not mean anything when it comes to making a request with ATC. You must offer all of your information to us so that we can make the appropriate notations in the system. By simply stating "VOR" that did not indicate that you were intended on landing there so therefore I had no clue that you had a certain preconceived notion of how the V3 exam should go.

Not knowing what your intention was, you may have wanted to fly to the SMO VOR via the mini route, then reverse course and fly the SFRA or climb into the Coastal Route.

I would chalk this up to what happens when miscommunication occurs; a very valuable lesson. No worries - it happens! I'm sure the rest of your exams will go well, and please do not hesitate to ask us questions if you're confused.
Anthony Santanastaso
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Caesar
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Re: V-03 Test Problems

Post by Caesar »

stevekirks wrote:The Mini Route has a defined start (the VFR reporting point VPLSR Hawthorne and 405 freeway intersection) and the end in the SMO VOR. If you had successfully navigated to the VOR and then asked for the landing, that half would have been completed. Combined with the video reference, there's room to see this as confusing.
Are you sure about this? I don't see anywhere on the TAC that specifies the Mini Route terminates at the SMO VOR. As I understand it Bravo transitions terminate when you are clear of the Bravo airspace.
Anthony Santanastaso wrote:Just to clear up something, you never said SMO airport - you said SMO VOR (if this was you).
Anthony: That was not me but thanks for the information. Maybe you can clarify the point above regarding the "end" of the Mini Route?
Keith Smith
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Re: V-03 Test Problems

Post by Keith Smith »

Caesar,

The best course of action in cases like this is to email ops@pilotedge.net as shown on the Contact page of the web site. It's not that we don't want people discussing it, but this isn't really something the wider PE community can specifically help with. If you have a real world procedural question, or a technical sim question, or a story to share, the forum is fantastic. But, specific questions about incidences on the network are best handled through an email to ops@pilotedge.net. Peter and I are the only people who can actually resolve this specific question for you.

That said, since it's being discussed, we can handle it here. It turns out there is some confusion here. When the V3 was written (long, long ago), there was no intention to REQUIRE a pilot to do the flight without landing elsewhere. However, from an operational standpoint, any kind of a stop along the way would need to be relatively short, otherwise it would place a unique burden on the testing process (ie, the notion of a test taking 5 hours and having to survive several controller shift changes). However, this was never addressed either way with controllers when the training program was brought to PilotEdge. I've personally let pilots do a full stop taxi back at VNY upon request, but I've just learned that other pilots have been failed for attempting the same thing, so we have not been consistent in this regard. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of this until now.

Peter and I discussed it and the decision is to EXPLICITLY prohibit any landings prior to the full stop landing at Torrance, purely to avoid the possibility of the test being drawn out. Certainly, there's nothing easier or harder from a pilot's perspective whether you stop or not, that's not the issue. It's purely related to the operational implications of resuming a test some unknown number of minutes/hours after the first half is flown. So, to avoid any type of slippery slope, the V3 text will be updated to show that landings are prohibited prior to TOA.

Since there was nothing prohibiting a temporary stop in the V3 material as it stood at the time of your test, I have made arrangements for you to be able to resume the test from SMO, receiving credit for the portion that was already flown. You can start from SMO, complete a south-bound transition (other than the one you have already flown, I believe it was the Mini Route) and then land at TOA. Advise the controller that you are resuming a V-3 with the Mini Route already completed, and that the controller should mark it as a pass with a note saying, "2nd half of V-3," and then Peter will take care of it from there. Of course, this assumes you have no issues during the second transition.

Sorry for the confusion. We try to eradicate any inconsistencies when we see them. Hopefully you can continue to enjoy the network from this point on. Try not to get too rattled by what happens, have faith that we can resolve it after the fact. For instance, rather than being upset about this fail, you could reasonably expect to escalate this to support/ops and receive some type of resolution....in this case, full credit for the portion flown. It's not something the controllers can resolve in real time, but we can generally get things cleared up offline.
stevekirks
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Re: V-03 Test Problems

Post by stevekirks »

I see Keith already jumped in here...don't know why I didn't think of the support email...

---
Caesar wrote:
stevekirks wrote:The Mini Route has a defined start (the VFR reporting point VPLSR Hawthorne and 405 freeway intersection) and the end in the SMO VOR. If you had successfully navigated to the VOR and then asked for the landing, that half would have been completed. Combined with the video reference, there's room to see this as confusing.
Are you sure about this? I don't see anywhere on the TAC that specifies the Mini Route terminates at the SMO VOR. As I understand it Bravo transitions terminate when you are clear of the Bravo airspace.
See below:
miniroute-text.JPG
miniroute-text.JPG (22.16 KiB) Viewed 3635 times
It's on the LA TAC chart (selectable in Skyvector and scroll far to the left)

That describes the route. How you use the route is to transit the Bravo. It doesn't "end" when you leave the Bravo but I think it ends as the text describes. That's why it's a route with a specific start and end point. Note at the very first of the description the GPS routing--a start and end point.
Steve Kirks (sKirks on Twitch)
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Caesar
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Re: V-03 Test Problems

Post by Caesar »

Keith: Thank you so much for your response! I have to say that was one of best customer service responses I've ever received from anyone. You've not only resolved the issue but went a step beyond with your offer to give me credit for the part I'd already completed. I feel vindicated and confident that my decision to have pre-paid PilotEdge for a year of service was a good one.

Thank you for your offer to give me credit for the portion of the flight already completely, but my frustration was not that I felt I did not receive what I was owed. If I came across that way I apologize.

My understanding regarding the intention of the V-03 test is to demonstrate my ability to successfully plan and execute Bravo transitions as published in the LA TAC. I would guess that a lot of people that take this test fly the exact same route presented in the video, emulating it as robotically as possible. While that's acceptable, it's not an effective way to gain essential knowledge, and in my opinion is not in the spirit of what this kind of test should be about. With this in mind I sat down and deliberately planned a route that was different from what I saw in the video, ensuring that it met all of the test criteria, and did not violate the FARs or the PiotEdge test rules. So I hope you can understand why, after several hours of preparation and planning, I was upset for being surprise-busted for a hidden rule that did not exist in any of the materials you provide to test takers.

I also vented my frustration that the clearance delivery controller did not inform me that what I had requested would violate the rules of the test. In hindsight I'm sure this was not deliberate. I realize that on PilotEdge one controller is doing the work of many, and I'm sure this was a case of oversight or just not connecting what I was asking with the V-03 test rules. I must say that I am impressed with the consistent high level of excellence and professionalism of the controllers on PilotEdge, who are both fair and firm when a situation calls for it.

As as postscript, while I appreciated your offer to give me credit for the portion of the test I had already flown, I decided I wanted to fly the full test from start-to-finish for my own benefit and personal satisfaction. I did that last night, and had an enjoyable virtual flight and got a "pass" for my effort. Although I've only completed the VFR tests thus far, they have been fun and challenging. I'd love to see the test program expanded in the future.
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