V-03 Test Problems

[Caesar]

I'm confused and a little upset right now after attempting the V-03 test. My plan was to fly the Mini Route north, land at Santa Monica, then depart with a right-270 for the Special Flight Rules transition southbound and land at Torrance. According to what the instructions say, this fulfills all of the requirements for the test. However, after I landed at Santa Monica the controller told me my V-03 was void because I was not allowed to land at Santa Monica (or anywhere else except Torrance) during the test.

The test requirements specify nothing regarding landings, procedures, or what's allowed and not allowed in between the two bravo transitions. It seems to me any kind of procedural test should spell out clearly what you can and cannot do. I assumed that since I'm flying VFR I can do whatever I want as long as it doesn't violate the FARs, and pass the test if I check off all the test-requirement boxes. This is apparently not the case.

Another question, after I requested to do the V-03 test from John Wayne Clearance I immediately requested flight following and said my destination was Santa Monica via the Los Angeles Mini Route. Does that not indicate that I intend to land there? I thought it did, but maybe my understanding on this is wrong. If it does indicate that I intend to land there then I find it upsetting that the controller who just cleared me to take the V-03 test didn't immediately point out that landing at Santa Monica was not allowed.

[stealthbob]

Just a quick comment from my perspective...

The ratings are quite different from a normal PilotEdge experience, they are geared towards compliance to the listed instructions on the rating requirements. For example, in the I-8 I was given "Expect the Sweetwater Visual" for the approach. I was confused and reported back that I did not brief that approach and do not have it on board. I then got an "expect vectors to final". I flew all the way to the final and then was told it was a fail...I was to fly the LOC RWY 27. At first I was annoyed but then it did make sense. The rating was all about the way you fly a non precision approach. What I took from this however was a great lesson in PIC and about making sure you communicate to ATC what you need and not what they give.

How does this relate to your situation then?

The test is to be considered as one flight "and then ultimately land at Torrance (KTOA)." Yea you can argue semantics but that is the true intent of the rating which is clearly illustrated in the transcript and the video.

It sucks hearing "failed" on the comms during a rating flight, I know as I heard it three times through my rating progress but there was a valuable lesson behind each one for me.

[wmburns]

Does that not indicate that I intend to land there? I thought it did, but maybe my understanding on this is wrong. If it does indicate that I intend to land there then I find it upsetting that the controller who just cleared me to take the V-03 test didn't immediately point out that landing at Santa Monica was not allowed.

Question. This is a VFR flight right? Under VFR rules isn't navigation the pilot's responsibility?

^^This indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the flight following services that ATC is providing to the VFR pilot. Would you bet your life that a real world ATC controller would catch that you aren't flying to the destination originally filed? Besides the controllers do not see a VFR flight plan on the scope.

Check out this post on VFR flight plans:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5973&hilit=vfr+flight+plans

+1 on above regarding the test standards. A well designed test/rating is going to test a full range of skills. Preparation and flight planning is one of the skills that every pilot needs. Preparation includes having the charts available. Understanding the route, weather, local conditions, any local requirements. The list is long.

Another question. Did you learn something on this flight that could make you a better pilot? At the very least you learned some of the limitations of services that ATC will provide the VFR pilot.

IMO it's best to chalk this up to experience and do the rating again. I'm sure it will be even easier the next time. Good luck.

[Kevin_atc]

I'm sure Keith will pipe up at some point, but one of my guesses as to why the v3 is supposed to be one continuous flight is to get the pilot to be able to do one transition then realign him or herself in mid flight to prepare for the second transition. It is one thing to land, park your plane, reset your NAV radios, realign your charts, etc... But it's an entirely differs thing to do those things mid-air all while trying to avoid busting D, C, and B airspace in the mean time.

[Caesar]

The test is to be considered as one flight "and then ultimately land at Torrance (KTOA)." Yea you can argue semantics but that is the true intent of the rating which is clearly illustrated in the transcript and the video.

I don't see how the video or the transcript clearly illustrates that it's mandatory that it be "one flight." In fact my takeaway from watching the video was that it's the pilot's discretion as to how he or she wants to reverse course for the return trip through the Bravo. It seemed to me that a quick stop at Santa Monica to reset the radios and gather my thoughts was much more prudent than pulling a Crazy Ivan in congested airspace.

^^This indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the flight following services that ATC is providing to the VFR pilot. Would you bet your life that a real world ATC controller would catch that you aren't flying to the destination originally filed? Besides the controllers do not see a VFR flight plan on the scope.

I don't know what you're talking about. I did not file a flight plan, and I DID fly to the destination I requested from Clearance Delivery. That was my point: Why did the Clearance Delivery controller approve me to take the V-03 test, then not tell me that landing at Santa Monica would void the test when I requested that as my destination 10 seconds later?

I'm sure Keith will pipe up at some point, but one of my guesses as to why the v3 is supposed to be one continuous flight is to get the pilot to be able to do one transition then realign him or herself in mid flight to prepare for the second transition. It is one thing to land, park your plane, reset your NAV radios, realign your charts, etc... But it's an entirely differs thing to do those things mid-air all while trying to avoid busting D, C, and B airspace in the mean time.

If the purpose of the test is to put the pilot under pressure by making them do a frantic reverse course in busy airspace then it should be better explained and defined. On the contrary, based on all the materials and how I interpret them it seems very open-ended. I can chose any two of the transitions I want, it's completely up to me. There is no specification for how or where I reverse course back through the Bravo airspace. If I want to take a leisurely flight up the coast and turn around over Oxnard, is that against the rules? I honestly have no idea.

Did you learn something on this flight that could make you a better pilot?

Nope. On the contrary, I now get the impression that these training exams are more like games where you have to figure out how to win through trail-and-error instead of preparation and planning.

[stevekirks]

The test is to be considered as one flight "and then ultimately land at Torrance (KTOA)." Yea you can argue semantics but that is the true intent of the rating which is clearly illustrated in the transcript and the video.

I don't see how the video or the transcript clearly illustrates that it's mandatory that it be "one flight." In fact my takeaway from watching the video was that it's the pilot's discretion as to how he or she wants to reverse course for the return trip through the Bravo. It seemed to me that a quick stop at Santa Monica to reset the radios and gather my thoughts was much more prudent than pulling a Crazy Ivan in congested airspace.

The description of the rating seems clear to this simpilot--conduct a flight where you depart from KSNA, complete two Bravo transitions and land at KTOA. I infer that the reason the word ultimately is included in the text and that section bolded is to clarify the fact that you won't land at your departure airport. Ratings flights have a departure airport and an arrival airport. Later on, in the "I" ratings, you'll have one where you depart airport A, try to land at airport B and go missed, and ULTIMATELY land at airport C, the designated alternate.

That said--the video says that the pilot could land at KVNY if they wanted to--timecode 16:47. That would need to be corrected if our assumptions above are true. One sentence in that video is the only time where a landing at an airport other than Torrance would be described as possible.

^^This indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the flight following services that ATC is providing to the VFR pilot. Would you bet your life that a real world ATC controller would catch that you aren't flying to the destination originally filed? Besides the controllers do not see a VFR flight plan on the scope.

I don't know what you're talking about. I did not file a flight plan, and I DID fly to the destination I requested from Clearance Delivery. That was my point: Why did the Clearance Delivery controller approve me to take the V-03 test, then not tell me that landing at Santa Monica would void the test when I requested that as my destination 10 seconds later?

You're taking a test, so why would you expect the "proctor" (controller) to tell you during a test that you've done something wrong? If this was a written exam, you'd have to complete the test and turn in your paper to be graded.

I'm sure Keith will pipe up at some point, but one of my guesses as to why the v3 is supposed to be one continuous flight is to get the pilot to be able to do one transition then realign him or herself in mid flight to prepare for the second transition. It is one thing to land, park your plane, reset your NAV radios, realign your charts, etc... But it's an entirely differs thing to do those things mid-air all while trying to avoid busting D, C, and B airspace in the mean time.

If the purpose of the test is to put the pilot under pressure by making them do a frantic reverse course in busy airspace then it should be better explained and defined. On the contrary, based on all the materials and how I interpret them it seems very open-ended. I can chose any two of the transitions I want, it's completely up to me. There is no specification for how or where I reverse course back through the Bravo airspace. If I want to take a leisurely flight up the coast and turn around over Oxnard, is that against the rules? I honestly have no idea.

Nothing in the rating says you must immediately do a U-turn and head south. At this point in the ratings, your experience would give you the tools to find a safe area to orbit, outside of controlled airspace, to reset your radios and brief the transition south. Completing the V-3 successfully means that you now have sufficient knowledge to navigate the ZLA airspace understanding it's restrictions and complications. So it's possible to understand why, by this time, you might be putting the pieces together about what you can/can't do on your flights.

Did you learn something on this flight that could make you a better pilot?

Nope. On the contrary, I now get the impression that these training exams are more like games where you have to figure out how to win through trail-and-error instead of preparation and planning.

I can't disagree with this more. You're engaging in the conversation, so you're learning that your ideas about the airspace and navigation are different than what you're finding on the network. You're trying to understand those differences and then apply what you find out. I'd say you're learning something.

Also, that last sentence comparing the rating to a game does yourself a discredit. If you really thought that I don't think you would have taken the time to engage the community and get answers to your questions.

Steve

[Ryan B]

You depart SNA, fly a route through the B and back and land at TOA - how is this confusing?

Routing your choice

[tngarner]

Same ask and set of instructions given in real world by a DPE or a CFI would have also equaled a fail IMO, don't assume just go where you are supposed to go or ask before you start. This is a test of task saturation and situational awareness, if you land you are taking elements away. A good rule before taking a test might be to ask yourself, why are they giving me this test, why two transitions. If it was only to show you can do a Bravo transition then the test would be over and you would stop after the first one.

As for ATC not helping. I think some where in the ratintings documentation it actually states that ATC will act and expects you to act as if you are not being tested (don't ask the controller about the test during).

[Caesar]

That said--the video says that the pilot could land at KVNY if they wanted to--timecode 16:47. That would need to be corrected if our assumptions above are true. One sentence in that video is the only time where a landing at an airport other than Torrance would be described as possible.

THANK YOU for pointing that out. That makes this whole deal even more ridiculous.

You're taking a test, so why would you expect the "proctor" (controller) to tell you during a test that you've done something wrong?

Every single time I've overheard a pilot failing an exam the controller tells them immediately that they've busted the exam and gives them the option to continue on for practice or terminate the flight. I've only been on PilotEdge a couple of weeks but have heard this multiple times.

I can't disagree with this more. You're engaging in the conversation, so you're learning that your ideas about the airspace and navigation are different than what you're finding on the network. You're trying to understand those differences and then apply what you find out. I'd say you're learning something.

The question was whether or not I learned something that would make me a "better pilot." My answer is a big fat no. I was fairly well prepared for the exam (or so I thought) and during the course of the flight gained zero new knowledge on communicating with ATC, navigating the Los Angeles Bravo airspace, or operating my aircraft. The single thing I learned from the experience is that there is an unwritten rule that says you cannot land at an airport other than Torrance during the PilotEdge V-03 test, and even that contradicts PilotEdge's own training video as you pointed out. That does not make me a "better pilot," that makes me a somewhat-frustrated PilotEdge subscriber.

[stevekirks]

Every single time I've overheard a pilot failing an exam the controller tells them immediately that they've busted the exam and gives them the option to continue on for practice or terminate the flight. I've only been on PilotEdge a couple of weeks but have heard this multiple times.

There's a narrow distinction you might not be seeing: the controller is telling the pilot about the failure when it happens. It could be looked at where you failed when you had a full stop landing at KSMO. Had you done a touch and go or pattern work, then continued on back south.

I can't disagree with this more. You're engaging in the conversation, so you're learning that your ideas about the airspace and navigation are different than what you're finding on the network. You're trying to understand those differences and then apply what you find out. I'd say you're learning something.

The question was whether or not I learned something that would make me a "better pilot." My answer is a big fat no. I was fairly well prepared for the exam (or so I thought) and during the course of the flight gained zero new knowledge on communicating with ATC, navigating the Los Angeles Bravo airspace, or operating my aircraft. The single thing I learned from the experience is that there is an unwritten rule that says you cannot land at an airport other than Torrance during the PilotEdge V-03 test, and even that contradicts PilotEdge's own training video as you pointed out. That does not make me a "better pilot," that makes me a somewhat-frustrated PilotEdge subscriber.

I think it's time for Peter to weigh in on this. The Mini Route has a defined start (the VFR reporting point VPLSR Hawthorne and 405 freeway intersection) and the end in the SMO VOR. If you had successfully navigated to the VOR and then asked for the landing, that half would have been completed. Combined with the video reference, there's room to see this as confusing.

Not to lose sight of too much here, I'd like to throw this out on the table:

Until recently, PE was a self-learning network. You got a subscription and then used it however you would see fit. Things like the ratings system or the Alphabet Challenge were/are guides to give your learning some structure. PE now offers a CFI for hire (Peter) and it's at that line that you might consider a value judgement. Since the ratings system isn't official, FAA approved or even something your real world instructor would design, then it's really you teaching yourself. If you were running this with Peter in the virtual seat next to you and failed, then I could see being upset with PE and the value it delivered because the documentation would have been reviewed with guidance and a fail there would have been wasted instructor time.

I think one more sentence added to the web page would eliminate this in the future, but there are new ratings content on the way, albeit lower priority than other PE projects.

Also, I'm not a PE employee, just speaking as a long time user and student pilot.

Steve