I-05 Visual approach confusion

Questions and comments about the PE Pilot Training Program
datstma
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:17 am

I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by datstma »

Hi everyone!

I tried on the I5 this weekend and made a terrible job at it. Haven't flown an airliner in a while, but I figured, I've been running SID's and Stars on Vatsim for years, so how hard can it be? ;-)

So, I filed the VNY2.DAG.KEPEC3 and entered it into my FMS in my A320, failed to double check the departure heading for RWY15 out of Burbank for VNT2, but realising my misstake after ATC taking notice after my departure. Quickly corrected and was given a nice direct to Palmdale.
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So far, so good, then I was optimistically expecting a 25L/R approach since KEPEC3 a the jet approach. But, enroute the approach at 11000 just after IPUMY I was notified to expect a visual approach RWY 1L. Well, no biggy I punched in ILS-1L into the FMS for reference, and spent a bit too much time tinkering with the STAR selection, well, I don't really needed the STAR anymore since I was about to go visual. Still cruising along a 11.000, slowing down to 220 knots. Then just before NIPZO, I got the "cleared for visual approach RWY 1L". Then I panic'ed since I realized that I was only 5 miles to the RWY on my left and I had to descend something like 8000 feet to get there.
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I my mind, the only way to perform this was to turn right in order to build enough distance to descend without going like a bullet into the ground, however, I didn't since turning right would mean that I have no visual of the airport since I would be turning away from it by several miles. Then as the seconds (minutes) ticked along I started thinking that maybe I should turn left head upwind 1L circling the airport, realizing that this would be rather hazardous and would violate KLAS airspace in more than one sense, so I promptly decided not to do that either. Trotting along, doing nothing ATC pointed out that I should be descending by now and they had noticed my vague lefty/righty heading wobbles, ATC gave me a vector heading right and all was good again (appart from me mid that heading happened to activate NAV-mode and started aiming for the ILS entry FIX for 1L and was as always called and corrected by ATC). I finally had the airport in sight in my right window, landed it, parked and had most correctly failed the I5. :-)

My question is simply this, when I got the "cleared for visual approach 1L", does that allow me to turn right, i.e. turning my back on the airport (since it was on my left) in order to descend those 8000 feet and align with the runway in a safe way? Or should I have asked for vectors or gone "unable visual something..."? :-)

Appreciate all and any feedback! :-)
Btw, love Pilotedge I'm training for my real world PPL so getting a chance to practice these more advanced procedures and ATC communication is great!

Here's how the flight ended up, doesn't look too bad from 100.000 feet ;-)
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Flying Penguin
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:32 am

Re: I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by Flying Penguin »

Well, first thing to do is slow down. If you crossed IPUMY at 230k, you need to be getting much slower, say 180, so things happen slower, this would make everything much simpler later on.

Once slow you can start a smart descent, say 2,000 fpm, still in a straight line. From your starting position, you could have flown for a minute or two in a straight line without loosing sight of the airfield. Follow that up with a 180-210 degree left turn, so you are maintaining or building distance from the field whilst getting configured but should still have sight of the field at all times. By the time you are back to the extended centre line, you should be at, or not much above, the glide slope. If needed you can go briefly past and turn back in a mile or two. A turn onto final at the appropriate moment and you are golden.

In short, there is rarely a need to turn your back on the field.
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datstma
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:17 am

Re: I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by datstma »

Thanks for the feedback (and the drawing)!

I guess I lack in experience when it comes to visual airliner approaches, hitting the airbrakes to 180kt and turning left in order to almost zig-zag to build distance felt a bit like something I as a passenger wouldn't enjoy. :-) The long right turn feels a bit more controlled, and doing 230kt on the KEPEC3 which allows for 250kt at that FIX felt ok. But still, turning right would have violated the cleared approach since I've then lost visual of the airport.

I'll give it another go (as always :-) ), this time armed with (hopefully) more knowledge and offline practice. And I'll probably go for a smaller jet, like the CRJ 200, love the A320, but being ready for making a nimble left with 130+ passengers is not what they are made for, at least not with sluggish me at the stick. :-)

And I'll definitely pick up your speed pointer there, next time ATC says "prepare for visual something...." I'll kill my speeds before they've even finished their sentence. :-)
/Stefan
Flying Penguin
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:32 am

Re: I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by Flying Penguin »

There's no reason for a fighter-style turn, it can all be done by the autopilot in HDG SEL and V/S mode and it's no more vigorous than normal flying (though you might need to dial in the turn in two stages to ensure it turns left rather than right). Cut the throttles whilst maintaining altitude and you shouldn't need much, if any, spoiler.

Also, a couple of points on the procedure, speed restrictions on KEPEC3 put you at 230k at IPUMY and 210k at SUNST, so at NIPZO you should be ~220k, (not 250k!) and the moment you hear "Expect Visual", you should be thinking about slowing down towards the bottom end of that range, which will mean you only have ~30 knots to loose, hardly throwing out the anchor. Additionally, you should be getting into the habit of having the heading bug lined up with your direction of travel, so when you move from STAR to Vectors or Visual, the process is simply to press "HDG SEL", "ALT HOLD" and "SPEED", then adjust as necessary.

Edit: On re-reading, that's a very Boeing way of thinking about the autopilot modes, you will need to do the translation to Airbuseze...
datstma
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:17 am

Re: I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by datstma »

Once again, thank you for the pointers! :-) I've been practicing switching between NAV and HDG. It does require some serious turns to make that visual scenario and knowing your aircraft inside and out helps, but I'm starting to get the hang of it. I'm simply more used to flying props and more nimble planes. And you are correct on the KEPEC3 speeds, I remembered them incorrectly. :-)

As always practice makes perfect I guess ;-)

Thanks for the feedback!

/Stefan
Marcus Becker
Posts: 982
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:12 pm

Re: I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by Marcus Becker »

If you don't know what to do, ask. If you can't do what's instructed, let ATC know.

However, it is my opinion that it's a bummer you failed the test because of this. If you look at any plane on flightaware.com that arrives into KLAS on your arrival and lands Rwy1, they are vectored at or near CLARR for the approach. It wasn't your fault that you were left on the STAR. If ATC required that you stay on the STAR and wanted you to take a visual approach to the 1's, they should have vectored you to final on a path much like you took to get there. To me, I would think it to be unreasonable to have an aircraft at 6000 feet over the ground and 4 miles from an airport and go straight in. My $0.02.
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yajna
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:40 pm

Re: I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by yajna »

I got exactly that on Sunday in my first PE flight in the new IXEG 737. Just before SKEBR I was told "turn right heading 340, the long way, vectors for the visual 1L approach". My track looked sort of like yours. As I was still being vectored and couldn't expect to see the field yet, the turned-away-from-airport problem didn't arise.

I agree, what you did doesn't seem like it should fail the I5.
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Peter Grey
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:21 pm

Re: I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by Peter Grey »

Hello Datsma,

I'd like to review this flight in a little more detail to see what happened from an ATC point of view.

Can you let me know when this happened and what callsign you used? Thanks.
Peter Grey
PilotEdge Director of Quality Assurance and Operations
peter@pilotedge.net
Marcus Becker
Posts: 982
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:12 pm

Re: I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by Marcus Becker »

I found the reason for the fail in the recordings. It wasn't because you turned away from the airport necessarily, it was reported that you didn't descend via the arrival or comply with ATC instruction.

However, ATC still should not have had you descending via the arrival for a visual approach to the 1's. Again, my $0.02. If you were going to the 25's, totally fine to use that tactic.
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datstma
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:17 am

Re: I-05 Visual approach confusion

Post by datstma »

@Marcus, yes I did fail because of my failure to descend via KEPEC3 combined with lacking to comply with ATC, I assume the latter being based on me switching from HDG to NAV by mistake adding . I'm not questioning why I failed, when I was supposed to be focusing on descending, I was instead scratching my head on how on earth I was supposed to make that visual for 1L. :-) And also failed to simply ask/inform ATC that I felt unable to perform that maneuver. Once again, I'm more used to flying props, not workload heavy airliners. Bad choice in airplane I guess. :-)

@Peter, you're most welcome to look at the details, but from my perspective I'm the one to blame for not practicing more with that particular aircraft, trying out different scenarios hence would have been more confident in exactly how to smoothly making exact and tight maneuvers if the visual for 1L was called for. I was concerned that making a left turn would put me way to close or over RWY 25L in a 30degree bank. And of course, next time being a bit more clear with ATC when I'm screwing things up and simply inform them when things are going south. :-) My callsign at that time was SAS255, here's the PE flight link http://peaware.pilotedge.net/flight.cfm?id=146955
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