I did an IFR flight today where I was cleared to the visual approach into Van Nuys with the traffic pattern entry on the opposite side of the field. In this scenario I have always been told that the preferred approach is to do a mid-field flyover (above TPA), then do a 270 degree turn to perform a 45 degree entry into the downwind at TPA. But the ATC controller told me, while not illegal, that this was not a good approach:
a) that it was required to always keep the field in site after cleared for an approach
b) that when doing an overfly I should have just merged directly into the downwind
c) preferable I should have flown outside the field area and entered straight into the downwind
What is the best approach in this scenario?
Correct approach for traffic entry on opposite side of field
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Re: Correct approach for traffic entry on opposite side of f
The key in this scenario is that Van Nuys is a controlled airport. Your pattern entry would be more acceptable at a non-towered field. Since you where on the visual, you could have set up for more of a crosswind over the numbers then turn onto downwind. Or overflying midfield and just turning downwind would also work. Or, depending on how you were approaching the field, angle to enter the downwind directly. The tower will expect you to take the most direct way to enter the pattern and work the traffic flow accordingly.
Andrew Fay
PilotEdge V-3; CAT-11; I-11; Skyhigh 10
Commercial Pilot/Instrument ASEL/AMEL- KOSU / Commercial sUAS
PilotEdge V-3; CAT-11; I-11; Skyhigh 10
Commercial Pilot/Instrument ASEL/AMEL- KOSU / Commercial sUAS
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Re: Correct approach for traffic entry on opposite side of f
Great answer - thanks for the response. Yes, I suppose the resources from which I learned my approach from were all related to uncontrolled airports.
Re: Correct approach for traffic entry on opposite side of f
Your pattern entry would be fine on a VFR flight. Zerofay32's reply would be fine as well.
For an IFR flight however you must also maintain the airport in sight at all times. That is item a) on your list. Items b) and c) are because it is impossible to keep the airport in sight if you are directly above or crossing the arrival numbers. Crossing the departure numbers and then banking to join the downwind keeps the airport in view at all times.
The rules of an IFR visual approach are
- maneuver however you like while taking the most direct route to your runway
- maintain VFR conditions
- keep the airport in sight at all times
An example of a simple difference would be a VFR aircraft can allow a cloud to block line of sight to the airport, IFR aircraft cannot.
so it's really up to you what path you take as long as you follow those simple rules.
If you're too high and you need to S-Turn or go out further, you don't need permission from ATC.
If you want to do a big DME arc to final, go GPS direct to the FAF, or join a pattern leg you don't need permission from ATC.
For an IFR flight however you must also maintain the airport in sight at all times. That is item a) on your list. Items b) and c) are because it is impossible to keep the airport in sight if you are directly above or crossing the arrival numbers. Crossing the departure numbers and then banking to join the downwind keeps the airport in view at all times.
The rules of an IFR visual approach are
- maneuver however you like while taking the most direct route to your runway
- maintain VFR conditions
- keep the airport in sight at all times
An example of a simple difference would be a VFR aircraft can allow a cloud to block line of sight to the airport, IFR aircraft cannot.
so it's really up to you what path you take as long as you follow those simple rules.
If you're too high and you need to S-Turn or go out further, you don't need permission from ATC.
If you want to do a big DME arc to final, go GPS direct to the FAF, or join a pattern leg you don't need permission from ATC.
Re: Correct approach for traffic entry on opposite side of f
Not if you're in a high wing.jx_ wrote: ...it is impossible to keep the airport in sight if you are directly above or crossing the arrival numbers....
I'm not sure this is 100% true. IFR or not, you still need to follow the pattern entry instructions from the tower. If there is a possibility of loosing sight of the airport while on a visual approach, you need to let the controller know that you will be unable to follow the assigned pattern and get new instructions. Also, if the weather is good enough to allow visual approaches, there is a chance that there are VFR aircraft operating in the pattern.jx_ wrote:so it's really up to you what path you take as long as you follow those simple rules.
If you're too high and you need to S-Turn or go out further, you don't need permission from ATC.
If you want to do a big DME arc to final, go GPS direct to the FAF, or join a pattern leg you don't need permission from ATC.
Andrew Fay
PilotEdge V-3; CAT-11; I-11; Skyhigh 10
Commercial Pilot/Instrument ASEL/AMEL- KOSU / Commercial sUAS
PilotEdge V-3; CAT-11; I-11; Skyhigh 10
Commercial Pilot/Instrument ASEL/AMEL- KOSU / Commercial sUAS
Re: Correct approach for traffic entry on opposite side of f
Even in a high wing you could lose it when it is behind, below, and to the right. A lot of random variables (aircraft, number of eyeballs, Go Pro cameras, bank angle), use your best judgment. But most pilots don't care because they know they're right over it and it's not going to move!zerofay32 wrote: Not if you're in a high wing.
His question is specific to his pattern entry. He could have flown circles around the airport until he was at a reasonable altitude and position for the 'most direct path' to the pattern. He could have done whatever he wanted to get to the pattern, as long as he followed those rules. Point is, for IFR visual approaches, ATC has the burden of applying specific restrictions. The one's I've listed are the minimum.zerofay32 wrote: you still need to follow the pattern entry instructions from the tower.
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Re: Correct approach for traffic entry on opposite side of f
Thanks for the details regarding the difference between VFR and IFR on a visual approach @jx_, I was not aware of those differences.jx_ wrote:The rules of an IFR visual approach are
- maneuver however you like while taking the most direct route to your runway
- maintain VFR conditions
- keep the airport in sight at all times