entering right traffic with nowhere to go

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joehobart
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:03 pm

entering right traffic with nowhere to go

Post by joehobart »

2017-09-16_15-38-47.jpg
2017-09-16_15-38-47.jpg (206.64 KiB) Viewed 4540 times
had an awesome experience today, inbound north for VNY, which is a right pattern only airport. to the east is burbanks class C to SFC. due to freq congestion my call to tower was at 6 miles in for the right downwind. so at point A, i had to figure out what to do. Normally, i would have swung out east and crossed midfield for a teardrop entry into the pattern, but 48/sfc 1/4 mile away, so thats no good. im still 3 miles out, so i figure i can quickly drop to pattern altitude and join the downwind. The controller gave me a correction for crossing the departure lane. (i am grateful for that 'in the moment' feedback and chance to learn, to be clear!). he suggested i should have swung wide to the west and entered at a 45. with my late call, i was trapped like a rat and didnt see a better choice, given the best choice was to shift the inbound course away from the right ride of the field in the first place!
1) should i have declared 'unable' at point A to tower or hauled it hard left for a sharp blind turn?
2) at a controlled tower, 'enter the downwind' is unclear to me if that implies that is a straight in, or 45 entry to that leg. 'enter right base' for instance is an implicit straight in entry, right?

i know off-sides entry is a debatable topic. as someone using PE to prepare for a real world PPL, im most interested in the best real world choices to be safe!
zerofay32
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:34 am
Location: Grove City, Ohio

Re: entering right traffic with nowhere to go

Post by zerofay32 »

This all goes down to preflight planning. You know that you are approaching the airport from the south and that the airport keeps it's traffic pattern to the west (left traffic for 16, right traffic for 36) Even without knowing which runway is in use, your pattern options have been really narrowed down. So in preflight you should already have an idea of what the tower will have you do and can plan for it. I would have tracked slightly to the west so that I was west of the extended runway centerline before calling tower. Then all you need to do is proceed directly to the pattern entry that you are given. But even in your case (east of the extended centerline) All you need to do is proceed direct to the specified pattern entry. No need to ever join on the 45 to downwind or do a midfield crossover teardrop at a towered airport unless you are instructed to do so by ATC.

To answer your two questions directly:

1) Not sure what you mean by a blind turn but you can square off the pattern, fly more of an extended crosswind before turning downwind, to expedite crossing the departure end of the runway but it's not necessary. Just aim for entering the downwind leg abeam the departure end of the runway. If there is traffic looking to depart, the tower will hold them until you are clear. No worries. Saying unable would only add more confusion in this scenario as there is no outside reason that you are unable to comply with the instruction.

2)Also not sure on your confusion here, when the tower gives entry instructions, you should (and will be expected) to proceed direct to the pattern leg specified. In this case it is just as tower said, enter the downwind. Practically, if the tower needs you to be somewhere else for any reason, they will tell you.
Andrew Fay
PilotEdge V-3; CAT-11; I-11; Skyhigh 10
Commercial Pilot/Instrument ASEL/AMEL- KOSU / Commercial sUAS
joehobart
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:03 pm

Re: entering right traffic with nowhere to go

Post by joehobart »

thanks for your response zerofay! if you scroll down on the inline picture, you can see the green line which is the actual flight path. you can see i basically did what you describe although not as square as could have been. my thought was the the tower specifically telling me to proceed direct downwind (but did not use the word 'direct', to be clear), and then when i did so, issued guidance that i should NOT have done so, and told me i SHOULD have swung out wide west and reentered at 45, not 'sidestep' direct into the right downwind. it was specifically in response to that that prompted me to seek other post mortem opinions. i thought i made a reasonable choice, but it was the 90 second crosswind leg (crossing the departure lane) that cheesed off the controller. i fully appreciate and agree the best choice was to plan better befor entering the airspace.
joehobart
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:03 pm

Re: entering right traffic with nowhere to go

Post by joehobart »

i've found similar statements to this, which support the idea of 'if issued entered right downwind, proceed direct'
"Pilots do not fly a standard traffic pattern at a towered airport, with a 45-degree entry to the downwind leg. Instead, aircraft enter the airport vicinity as instructed by ATC, reporting arrival on an assigned pattern leg and then accepting further instructions or a clearance to land."
the ATC handbook doesn't speak to it directly
a. Specific traffic pattern information (may be
omitted if the aircraft is to circle the airport to the left).
PHRASEOLOGY−
ENTER LEFT/RIGHT BASE.
STRAIGHT−IN.
MAKE STRAIGHT−IN.
STRAIGHT−IN APPROVED.
RIGHT TRAFFIC.
MAKE RIGHT TRAFFIC.
RIGHT TRAFFIC APPROVED.
CONTINUE.
NOTE−
Additional information should normally be issued with
instructions to continue. Example: “continue, report one
mile final”; “continue, expect landing clearance two mile
final”; etc.
b. Runway in use.
c. Surface wind.
d. Altimeter setting
common sense certainly tells me, dont fly in front of the active upwind. but in this case, it seemed (in the heat of the moment) thats what was going to have to happen to get from point A to the right downwind.
Ryan B
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:37 pm

Re: entering right traffic with nowhere to go

Post by Ryan B »

As a RW controller if I tell a pilot to enter a right downwind from your point A, I expect them to approach the departure path and literally fly about a 330 heading to the right downwind . If I needed something different I might say fly west through ry16R centerline then enter right downwind etc
PE ID: 29
FAA ATCS
FAA PPL ASEL
joehobart
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:03 pm

Re: entering right traffic with nowhere to go

Post by joehobart »

thank you ryan, thats quite authoritative! i appreciate your consideration of my scenario to help me learn how to be safe and predictable.
zerofay32
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:34 am
Location: Grove City, Ohio

Re: entering right traffic with nowhere to go

Post by zerofay32 »

joehobart wrote:and then when i did so, issued guidance that i should NOT have done so, and told me i SHOULD have swung out wide west and reentered at 45, not 'sidestep' direct into the right downwind.
I would say that either the controller was mistaken with where you actually were in relation to the airport, or is mistaken on procedure. What did you say when you called the tower? If you said you were South of the field when you are in reality South East, then I would give the controller a pass. Otherwise, their "suggestion" of swinging out to the west and entering on a 45 is incorrect based on the instructions they gave and should have been more explicit if that is truly what they wanted you to do. If you were accurate in your location reporting on the initial call, then you did exactly what any RW pilot would have done in the same situation.

That being said, I still would have planned on approaching the airport from the south or southwest rather than the southeast but sometimes that is too impractical depending on your route. If I was coming from say El Monte, then I would just approach the airport from the southeast or even the east and leave it up to the tower to give me entry instructions.
Andrew Fay
PilotEdge V-3; CAT-11; I-11; Skyhigh 10
Commercial Pilot/Instrument ASEL/AMEL- KOSU / Commercial sUAS
HRutila
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:06 pm

Re: entering right traffic with nowhere to go

Post by HRutila »

joehobart wrote:had an awesome experience today, inbound north for VNY
The correct phraseology according to your diagram would be "inbound from the south." The tower needs your direction from the field -- not your heading.
Harold Rutila
COMM-MEL/CFII
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