Thoughts on how to intepret this holding pattern

Thoughts on how to intepret this holding pattern

Postby CaptainMD » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:03 am

Hello PE,

While on a checkride VA flight I did on an old Cedar Creek 6 (KDFW) arrival, I was instructed to hold southeast of the depicted hold at WEIRS. I assumed to initiate a standard right turn after WEIRS which would put me “southeast” of WEIRS.

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306221B9-1ECC-472B-B232-AEDE00EAAA5C.jpeg (186.15 KiB) Viewed 139 times


I was informed that I should have inititated a left turn but I was never told to initiate a non-standard “left” turn to enter the hold. The check pilot also said the turn is clearly marked to take a left but I remember a PE workshop video saying that the hold depiction does not necessarily mean follow the lines.

How would you intepret the hold “souteast of WEIRS” instruction given the diagram? I wanted to check with PE because I trust the veterans and experts on this forum with the higest regard. Note: the top of the diagram is North.

Thanks for your time,
Massimo
Massimo D'Alessandro
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Aircraft: 737-800, Beech Baron 58
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Re: Thoughts on how to intepret this holding pattern

Postby rtataryn » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:14 am

“Hold southeast of the depicted hold at WEIRS” is a bit of an odd request. Are you sure you weren’t asked to “Hold southeast of WEIRS as depicted”? Either way, If they included the word depicted, even with the non-standard phraseology, I would think they wanted you to fly the depicted left turns, but would have queried back with, “Confirm you’d like me to fly the hold as depicted?”
Rod
PPL, Instrument rated, ASEL, ASES
2013 Cirrus SR22T N877MS
2018 Icon A5 N509BA
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Re: Thoughts on how to intepret this holding pattern

Postby CaptainMD » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:05 am

Thanks for your feedback Rod. I should clarify that they never used the word depicted or the words as depicted. You’re right though, I should have asked saying “as dipicted?” which would have clarified the situation. As the old saying goes, “If you’re not sure, ask”.
Massimo D'Alessandro
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Aircraft: 737-800, Beech Baron 58
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Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:17 am

Re: Thoughts on how to intepret this holding pattern

Postby Keith Smith » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:05 pm

It would be helpful if they used standard phraselogy. "Cleared to WEIRS, hold southeast AS PUBLISHED expect further clearance at xxxxx...."

Assuming you got THAT clearance while on the arrival, it would be a direct entry, left turns.

What I was conveying in the workhop is that while manuevering to ENTER the hold on a parallel or tear drop entry, you might be doing something other than the turns that are published for the STEADY STATE holding pattern.
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Re: Thoughts on how to intepret this holding pattern

Postby Keith Smith » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:10 pm

I was instructed to hold southeast of the depicted hold at WEIRS. I assumed to initiate a standard right turn after WEIRS which would put me “southeast” of WEIRS.


The cardinal direction (southeast) does NOT change it from left turns to right turns You will STILL be southeast of WEIRS when holding as published.

Also, if they said, "hold southeast of WEIRS" and didn't include "as published," then they would need to specify the radial/course for the holding, along with the direction of the turns if they wanted left turns. "As published" removes the need for specifying direction of turns (for left turns) and the course.
Keith Smith
 
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Location: Pompton Plains, NJ

Re: Thoughts on how to intepret this holding pattern

Postby CaptainMD » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:38 pm

Guys thanks so much your inputs! This is exactly why I am a member here.

The fact that I guessed the turn without asking for clarification was wrong on my part but there is also the duty of issuing complete phraseology when one is overseeing complex navigation scenarios like a hold.

This situation was in no way affiliated with a PilotEdge controller.
Massimo D'Alessandro
Simulator Pilot
Aircraft: 737-800, Beech Baron 58
CaptainMD
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:17 am


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