Departure and taxing questions

Departure and taxing questions

Postby Alex56 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:21 am

Hello every one! I have two questions. Please.
1) I requested a departure from San Luis to the South. I'm standing on the holding short rw29. The dispatcher gave me instructions left down wind, clear takeoff rw29. Should I do left down wind (turn left 112 degrees and exit airspace D in that direction) or I can make turn to the left by 202 degrees and fly towards the ocean after takeoff, and when I leave airspace D I will turn South?

2) Before taxi from a parking, the ground ATC assigned a taxi way, for example on KSBP from West Side Ramp: via M, E, cross runway on E, continue via A. Do I need to request permission from the tower controller to cross the runway immediately before crossing the runway? Permission to cross the runway is requested from the tower controller? Is it necessary to inform the tower controller of the completion of the crossing runway? After cross runway, while continuing taxi, should I switch back to the ground ATC?
Thanks.
Last edited by Alex56 on Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Departure question

Postby Ray Salmon » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:26 am

It's actually a fantastic question, and one that doesn't have a very consistent answer. The AIM does not address downwind departures specifically and there seems to a large variation in local expectations. As controllers, we should probably be giving you further instruction as to what we want you to do once you get on the downwind leg, but I'm aware that doesn't happen very often. On PE, I generally give the instruction as a courtesy to the pilot so that they don't feel obligated to comply with the AIM procedures of flying straight out or with a 45 degree turn when really they want to be flying the opposite direction (CAT 4 SBP-SMX comes to mind).

In my head, once you get on the downwind leg somewhere between midfield and abeam the numbers, I'll expect to see you make a turn to your on course heading (away from the airport). Once out of the pattern, I expect to see you climbing. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the "continue on downwind heading until leaving Class D" as it really narrows down my final approach corridor. I think my favorite version of the downwind departure is departing the pattern on a 45 degree at midfield then start climbing. It keeps my arrival corridor open while still pointing you roughly in the right direction for where you want to go.
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Re: Departure and taxing questions

Postby Alex56 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:40 am

Ray Salmon, thanks for my first question. I understood.
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Re: Departure and taxing questions

Postby Ray Salmon » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:52 am

As to your second question: if the controller gave you the runway crossing instruction with your initial taxi clearance then you do not need further permission from him/her. If no crossing instruction was received then hold short of the runway.

There are only 3 times where you automatically switch from one frequency to another when in contact with ATC:

1. When you are holding short of your assigned departure runway (from the point at which you will takeoff) you switch from ground to tower.
2. You have not requested flight following and you have left Class D airspace. You may then change frequency at your leisure.
All other frequency changes are upon ATC instruction only.

You do not need to report clear of the runway unless instructed to do so. We can see that you are clear.
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Re: Departure and taxing questions

Postby Alex56 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:18 am

Thank you very much, Ray.
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Re: Departure question

Postby RogerW » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:46 pm

Ray Salmon wrote:... I think my favorite version of the downwind departure is departing the pattern on a 45 degree at midfield then start climbing. It keeps my arrival corridor open while still pointing you roughly in the right direction for where you want to go.


Is it acceptable to just keep the nose up on downwind and climb up out of the traffic pattern and the on route?

By 45° turn at midfield is that in the direction of the pattern, across the field if applicable, or always away from the field regardless of pattern?

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Re: Departure and taxing questions

Postby Scott Medeiros » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:04 pm

There is no need to stop your climb when departing the pattern. Always turn away from the field. If you are departing in a direction that would take you across the field, the controller would’ve probably given you the opposite downwind or a crosswind departure. The only scenario I could think of where you might need to depart in one direction and then cross the field would be if terrain was a factor and the controller couldn’t send you that way. But in that case I think you’d probably be climbing out of the top of their airspace before wanting to turn over the terrain.
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Re: Taxing and Departure questions

Postby Alex56 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:17 pm

Hello. I have two questions again, please.
1) When I flying a VFR before or during entry into controlled airspace, I often get the instruction "right down". What does it mean? Does this mean that I must continue to fly straight to the current course until I receive instructions to change direction, or can I change direction during the flight at my own discretion?

2) After clearing the runway, I move onto the taxiway to the holding short and at holding short, usually, without permission of the tower switch from tower to ground, after that I inform the ground about cleared RW on the taxiway (for example, A6). I read somewhere that I can do that. Or should I first report to tower about cleared RW and only after the tower is allowed I should to switch to the ground?
Every time the controler says to me something like "... mines frequency". I probably wrote the words wrong. I can not understand this combination of words. Please, write these words so that I understand the instruction.

This is written in CAT-4:
When clear of the runway.
Santa Maria Tower: “Cessna 123AB, contact ground 121.9.”
N123AB: “Contact ground, Cessna 123AB.”
After switching to ground frequency.
N123AB: “Santa Maria Ground, Cessna 123AB, clear of runway 30 at alpha 4, taxi to transient parking.”
Santa Maria Ground: “Cessna 123AB, Santa Maria Ground, taxi to parking via alpha.”
N123AB: “Taxi to parking via alpha, Cessna 123AB.”

I understand that, but I was not told that.
Many thanks.
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Re: Departure and taxing questions

Postby Keith Smith » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:13 pm

1) the instruction is "RIGHT DOWNWIND DEPARTURE." The controller is advising you of how they want you to depart the pattern. In this case, you would fly right traffic and then depart from the downwind leg.

2) You do not swap from tower to ground. You remain on the tower frequency until/unless advised to contact ground. At many airports in the real world, tower and ground are handled by the same person. As a result, they will often say, "taxi to the ramp, remain on this frequency," or "stay with me," etc.

You will need a strong grasp of conversational English to be able to fly successfully in US airspace, both virtually or in the real world.

I believe the same controller was trying numerous times for you to state your exact location on the field through the use of the phrase, "SAY PARKING." (ie, where the aircraft is currently parked) so that he could issue appropriate taxi instructions. You kept stating the direction that you wished to fly ("southeast" or something along those lines).
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Re: Departure and taxing questions

Postby Keith Smith » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:17 pm

As an aside here is a quote from the CAT-2 communications review (above the transcript section):
After landing exit the runway at the first available taxiway and ensure that the aircraft is past the hold short lines. The tower should either provide taxi instructions or tell you to contact ground control. Do NOT switch to ground control without an instruction to do so. If you have cleared the runway and the tower doesn’t call you with instructions query the tower.


We do not repeat this guidance on subsequent CAT Ratings as it is assumed knowledge from the earlier ratings.
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