Page 1 of 1

[Jan 29] Scenario-based VFR Flight Planning (Class B/C)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:46 pm
by Keith Smith
The videos are available here: ... ion-part-3

If anyone has questions or comments about the workshop, fire away. The main crux of this was a review of the V-2 rating from SNA to ONT and then a 200nm+ cross country out of KDFW. It discusses an iterative technique for rapid route planning:
1. start with direct route
2. bend the route to include VOR's if they're nearby
3. fill in the gaps between the VOR's with enough closely-spaced landmarks or other visual references

It discusses the futility of trying to plan a detailed route of the Bravo. Instead, start with a plausible spot outside of the Bravo to visually identify and then 'start the flight' from that point.

If anyone else has flown VFR in or out of Bravo's (not IFR, that's a different animal), please share!

Re: [Jan 29] Scenario-based VFR Flight Planning (Class B/C)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:25 pm
by rgrazian
Hi Keith,

I had a few spare minutes today and watched the VFR planning video. Great Job…!!! I plan my flights almost exactly the same way and picked up a couple of tips. I’m originally from Dallas and learned to fly in this BUSY area. Since moving back to town, I fly out of Addison (KADS) fairly often (I’m doing my IFR with an instructor based there), otherwise it’s T67 (Hicks in Ft Worth) in my buddy’s Lance II. First of all, with all the great airports in the area (with very easy access via car), why did you need to land at the beast called DFW? Anyway, I digress.

The one item I want to point out about this or any class Bravo area is… Be prepared…! I’m sure the real SoCal is even busier than Dallas. Having been on PE for only a few weeks, I think the biggest difference from real world is the lack of copious conflicting traffic, thus work (for both pilots and controllers). Your controllers are busy, but the planes are all spread out. In real world flying (especially in Dallas), there are planes EVERYWHERE…! “Follow this guy, give way to that guy, traffic here, traffic there, traffic everywhere”. Thus, there are some things that happen that don’t show up on the charts. For example, when landing Addison, the ATIS instructs inbound VFR aircraft to contact approach for landing sequencing. Addison is a Delta airport but operates kinda like a Charlie for inbound VFR traffic not on advisories.

I’m flying the Lance to Galveston in the morning, so I’m off to plan the flight! We’ll have Houston’s bravo to deal with and it’s my first trip to KGLS, so I need to study a bit so I can sweet talk my way through. Hopefully, I’ll get a quick flight in on PE tonight after a planning margarita (limit, one). I have to fly tomorrow, after all…

The 911 story is classic along with the jump starter…! Awesome…! If you’re ever back in Dallas, look me up! We’ll go fly!

Re: [Jan 29] Scenario-based VFR Flight Planning (Class B/C)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:30 pm
by Keith Smith
temporary video no longer linked, now points to the official workshop page which contains the video in two parts. Thanks to Mark and Christian (we did end up using Christian's audio and Mark's video if you can believe it).

Re: [Jan 29] Scenario-based VFR Flight Planning (Class B/C)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:38 am
by rgrazian
Hello Everyone,

To continue from my above post. I completed 2 real world fights yesterday from T67 (Fort Worth) to KGLS (Galveston) and back. The plane was a Piper Lance II. The flight plan included VOR backups to GPS (just like Keith’s video). This flight encounters two busy class bravo areas. We had flight following both ways. On the way down to Galveston, we did not enter any class bravo. We either stayed below the shelf or went around it. On the home, we flew directly though the center of Houston’s class bravo and the southwest corner of the Dallas-Ft.Worth class bravo. Taking wind out of the equation, both trips were almost identical in length. Why…? Because during the transition of the Houston bravo, we got vectored all over the place. This was to avoid all the commercial traffic in and out of Houston Hobby and George Bush International. So if you’re not flying with a GPS, make sure you know where you are. BTW -- When flying VFR in bravo, an altitude bust is technically a violation. Thus your altitude and heading better be spot on. (Did I mention the Lance II does not have autopilot…?) Needless to say, the flight home was a lot more work. I am working on my instrument rating and the work associated with yesterday’s flight home was all in a day’s work for an instrument pilot, so it felt good.

The moral of the story… Requesting clearance through bravo may not save you any time and is a lot of work. However, it is a boat load of fun!

I also want to mention that I asked for bravo clearance both times through Houston. They offered to take me through on the way in but at a very low altitude. I chose to stay higher and go around. Two reasons… It was little was a bumpy down low yesterday and there is less time to deal with a problem if something goes wrong. If you ever fly to Galveston, take the courtesy car and have breakfast/lunch at Jimmy’s on the Pier.

Safe Flying…

Re: [Jan 29] Scenario-based VFR Flight Planning (Class B/C)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:50 am
by JN_
Good presentation, sorry I missed it live. I was hoping to hear the story about the sheriff car ride, but apparently it was left on the cutting room floor. I'm assuming that's the same as the aforementioned "911 call"; if not, I missed a few good stories...

Regarding the ATIS discussion, when flying into PHNL bravo having forgotten to pick up ATIS, I have been instructed to "advise when you have Charlie". So Mark's (?) joke saying "go back and get it, young man!" was not far from the truth.

P.S. Any answer to the question posed during the session: Is it ok to make an early turn, before reaching the end of the runway? And does the answer differ for towered vs. non-towered airports?

Re: [Jan 29] Scenario-based VFR Flight Planning (Class B/C)

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:37 pm
by Geoff
P.S. Any answer to the question posed during the session: Is it ok to make an early turn, before reaching the end of the runway? And does the answer differ for towered vs. non-towered airports?

I'm late to the party, but I recently finished watching this Workshop and had the same question. Reading the "Basic AIM" of April 2014 (from the FAA website), I found a couple of examples that seem to suggest one should not turn before reaching the departure end of the runway. But I'm a newb, so I could be interpreting this wrong. This excerpt is from the "examples" description of traffic patterns, page 4-3-3, accompanying illustration 4-3-2. There's similar language on the following page, too:

If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude.

Re: [Jan 29] Scenario-based VFR Flight Planning (Class B/C)

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:08 pm
by HRutila
Yes. If there is a tower you must obtain permission to begin an early crosswind turn.