Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

36 leg Achievement

Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby Talan2000 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:00 am

Pilots,

Another trip back out across the desert. A few things worth mentioning. http://peaware.pilotedge.net/flight.cfm?id=87119

Lessons Learned:
Novel Taxi: MCAS YUMA is a giant airfield. The default scenery doesn't do it justice and a bunch of taxiways were not labeled. Having previously landed on 21R I was on the West side of the field near what MUST have been Z3 - a teeny weeny little alley of a taxiway. Ground wanted to give me 17, but I wanted the BIG runway so I asked for an intersection takeoff of 21R Via "E28" and Z3. Problem was Ground said there was no E28 and no way to get to 21R without going on 17. So I said, "That's what I want to do". It was a bit of a novel call for me once I got there, "Yuma Tower, King Air 3298s holding short of 21R ON 17" but I guess it must happen other places, I've just never held short on a crossing runway before. Anybody know what/where E28 is since ground told me it didn't exist??

z3.JPG
z3.JPG (151.53 KiB) Viewed 4582 times


Departure Procedure: By now you are certainly looking for these every time now in the A/FD & takeoff mins. The main thing here is not to fly into Mexico which is disorientingly WEST of the field and not just South (don't worry up is still up and down is still down :). Also, make sure you don't fly over the school and disturb the kids. Something I did read and guess at is "Diverse Departure Authorized". What exactly is a Diverse Departure and how do I get to do one? :) I'm guessing you have to be strapped into an F/A-18 to do it justice...

DiverseDeparturesAuth.JPG
DiverseDeparturesAuth.JPG (61.05 KiB) Viewed 4582 times




Dare to Dream: Leaving Bard, BZA, I thought I'd be proactive and ask to cut the teeniest of corners at IPL along my filed route -- like shaving 3 miles off the route. ATC told me to standby...and in the time I waited and motored on I was esssentialy on top of the VOR so I told him, hopefully keeping the crushing disappointment out of my voice, "Disregard". Fortunately he did NOT disregard but came back with the surprise instruction to fly HDG 280 direct PDZ! Wow! Talk about asking for an inch and getting a mile! Whoo hoo. I flew the HDG for quite a long way - wisely deciding to dial up Julian (JLI) as it was an intermediate point and of course 280 took me direct to JLI though I wasn't cleared as such so I didn't technically track the radial DIRECT (I promise). Closer to JLI I picked up PDZ and was given a "Cleared direct PDZ". I am a bit old school in my flight planning it would seem, and I always use Airways. Part of this is being uncertain just what the reception ranges of these VORs are (even though I do have GPS on board I try not to use it). I wonder what you and our ATC friends can share with me about "Optimal Flight Path Planning" in SOCAL-- of course the TEC Route system would make one believe that the airway is highly preferred to filing DIRECT. I look forward to seeing the routes you file.

ATC Instruction: I really enjoy the calmer moments on PE when ATC goes the extra mile and gives me some informal training. This controller,who shall remain nameless since I don't know his name but certainly recognize his voice, is one of my favorites for overall professional demeanor. He took the initiative to review/discuss the GPS routing/intercept criteria with me when clearing me into KONT approach. He also oh so graciously said, "He must have kept me too high for the approach and asked me if I wanted to continue it" which was a very nice way of critiquing my oh -so-typical screaming in fast and high approach habit. I DO enjoy a plane that can descend easily at 1500-2000 ft per minute with approach flaps and 120kts. So I dove and slowed and landed in 1500 ft or so of the runway. How DOES one live in an airplane without BETA? Pity the poor poor pistons :)

Enjoy the flight!

Todd
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Re: Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby Keith Smith » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:50 am

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Re: Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby Peter Grey » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:03 pm

With regards to E-28, you'll note that E-28 is located next to every double arrow symbol on each end of the runways.

This is an arresting gear system, specifically the "E-28 shore based arresting gear system"

In terms of how do you know it's not a taxiway. Taxiways never have a "-" in them. Also in this case E-28 makes multiple appearances on the diagram which wouldn't happen with a taxiway.
Peter Grey
PilotEdge Director of Quality Assurance and Operations
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Re: Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby Talan2000 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:30 pm

Peter,

LOL. I was of course only looking at the part of the diagram that applied to me (and that double arrow is obscured at Z3) and ignored all those OTHER E-28s. I love it. I promise to direct my Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeballs more effectively next time! I really do enjoy learning all of this information even if it is somewhat "stream of consciousness" from a self taught IFR pilot :) I'm sure no one in the history of PE has asked about E-28s :) As an aside, they really do need to try to get more information on this diagram, there's not enough now...

Keith,

Thanks again for the reference and for taking the time to create all this content. I struggle with consuming a 3 hr video but am determined to work my way through. That said, I was doubly happy to discover my specific question answered in the first 8 minutes! Score. I was somewhat disappointed that it turned out to be so pedestrian a thing. I had imagined it was something to do with military operations since I first came across it at an MCAS. Interesting to note that these departures are a teensy bit less diverse than standard with climb rates between 225-230ft/nm vs the much more diverse 200ft/nm...It seems to me a bunch of measuring with micrometers and chopping with axes since I can't imagine anyone remembering anything other than 500 fpm.
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Re: Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby NyyDave » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:48 pm

I was on approach as well going to SNA when you said you liked your approaches high. I had a good laugh just at the fact that you got the controller laughing, I've never heard him slip out of his very professional demeanor before haha.
Dave H
DA40 N1708B & BRAV N29EB
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Re: Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby Keith Smith » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:26 pm

It seems to me a bunch of measuring with micrometers and chopping with axes since I can't imagine anyone remembering anything other than 500 fpm.


If you plan on flying sim only...that's fine. But if a real world instrument pilot only remembers 500fpm, it could get him or her killed. So, I am willing to bet that most of them are familiar with more than just that one rule.

500 feet per minute is a minimum for ATC purposes (they know that you'll climb 1000ft in 2 minutes, for example).

For terrain and obstacle separation, something which every IFR pilot should be interested in, 200ft/nm is the assumed initial climb gradient, however, SIDs can call for higher climb gradients, and as of late in 2014, diverse vectoring areas can also require higher climb gradients. See the Takeoff Minimums for LAX and SNA for examples of that. The DVA change is new, but the concept of non-standard climb gradients for ODPs and SIDs is a fundamental part of IFR.

If you assume 500fpm, jump into a fast moving airplane and depart in IMC from just the wrong airport, in just the wrong conditions, then your terrain and obstacle separation is no longer guaranteed.

I realize some of the videos are long, they weren't well-planned in some cases, but there's no need to watch it all in one sitting. Watch a topic, note the timestamp, close it and then come back when you're ready to view the next 'chapter' within the presentation.
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Re: Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby Talan2000 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:40 pm

Keith

Thanks.

My point was not to minimize the importance of obstacle clearance and it was in the context of "diverse departures authorized" which, as you described in your lecture, are essentially pancake airports with a government survey documenting they have minimal obstacles.

That was my point -- why haggle/obsess over 200 vs 225 vs 230 Feet Per Nautical Mile. when of course no planes I've flown in have a Ft Per NM guage for the pilot to closely monitor. (Far more useful would be an AOA guage, but that's a different story.) And yes, I will certainly preemptively agree that in preflight planning there is plenty of time for simple math for anything you want to do, so I am sure we are not disagreeing.

So, taking your example, 500 fpm is the same as 200 ft Per Nautical mile AT 150KTS. Anything slower and you are golden. That's a pretty useful notion for a GA pilot to tuck away.

Besides, 150 kts is a pretty fast climb speed and I can't imagine any aircraft that climbs at 150kts but can't manage 500 fpm per minute while doing so.

So Up to that speed, a rule of thumb of at least 500 fpm is a pretty good one especially as you can read it in the cockpit instantly. I'm not dividing by 225 or 230 wondering if I'm going to clear that ridge... That was my point about micrometers and chopping. Take the most conservative number - 500 FPM in any plane flying LESS than 150 kts on departure and should be ok. But of course aim for higher climb rate than the minimum especially if you are in obstacle laden terrain.

Of course, it behooves any pilot to pay attention to climb gradients that are higher whether they are IFR rated or not. And especially when flying in obstacle laden terrain -- mountains, towers whatever.

Thanks for the specific details about diverse vector areas with higher climb gradients.
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Re: Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby Keith Smith » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:51 pm

The reason for publishing the higher climb gradients for the diverse vectoring area is to ensure that terrain and obstacle separation requirements are met while you're being vectored by ATC. Without them, the range of headings that could be issued out of a given airport would be reduced (or in fact not be available at all). That might effectively reduce the number of departures that can be launched per hour from the field.
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Re: Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby flyingdrill » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:12 pm

I was going to BLH, so just flew the PICA3.BLH departure. Simpler today, because the wind was just right for a runway 35 departure - the easiest! I had filed for a time based on a slower speed than I should have, but I had a pretty good tail wind component for most of the flight, which saw me with a GS of 220KT for a lot of the time in my Malibu! I commented to the controller that, in the RW, I would have been updating my estimated flight time quite frequently :) Made a low approach and landed on the numbers - just what is needed on a 10,000' runway!!! :lol:
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Re: Alphabet Challenge 14 KNYL - KONT

Postby Hesynergy » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:32 am

Now this trip is not recorded.....at least there is no map...tho the verious PEaware functions seem to indicate I arrived...twice.

...again, I have video....what I got when I looked for N146CH, AND clicked on it is the following:

THE REQUEST HAS EXCEEDED THE ALLOWABLE TIME LIMIT TAG: CFHTTP

Resources:
Enable Robust Exception Information to provide greater detail about the source of errors. In the Administrator, click Debugging & Logging > Debug Output Settings, and select the Robust Exception Information option.
Check the ColdFusion documentation to verify that you are using the correct syntax.
Search the Knowledge Base to find a solution to your problem.
Browser Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/53.0.2785.116 Safari/537.36
Remote Address 74.136.999.999
Referrer http://peaware.pilotedge.net/callsign.c ... ign=n146ch
Date/Time 02-Oct-16 02:27 AM

I am STILL CONNECTED as I write this.

Chas
Last edited by Hesynergy on Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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