IFR KSAN - KLAS Issues :( Help? :)

[taymas]

Hello guys, I'm just doing some offline practice flights, but I think I'm doing wrong - lest start with the route, which I pulled from simroutes(.)com:

KSAN-KLAS:
PEBLE4 SXC LAX J9 DAG CLARR2

SID KSAN: PEBBLE FOUR
STAR KLAS: CLARR TWO

I'm using X-Plane 10, and using VOR to navigate the flight plan in the FlyJSim 727-200f.

Ok, so I do the 290' turn, followed by the 315', followed by 293' and finally join the Santa Catalina VOR at 277' radial (or 97' as on chart). So far so good according to the PEBBLE FOUR departure, I am certain I've done this bit correctly - I hope so and I've done this using VOR - no FMC.

Now I need to get the LAX VOR - so I do this by leaving the Santa Catalina VOR at 359' radial, as according to the simroutes(.)com plan above (please check it out at simroutes, the route is listed with courses, speed etc.

Now here's the thing - by following the 359' Santa Catalina radial, I should hit the LAX VOR, no? but I'm out by a long shot. So I carry on and now travel at the LAX VOR 56' radial, hoping to pic up the DME/VOR signal for the DAGGET VOR - but when I pick up the signal I'm waaaay to far south of it apparently.

I thought that the Catalina VOR at 359' radial would bump into LAX VOR. Then subsequently the LAX VOR at radial 56' would hit the DAGGET VOR. But I'm off. (DAGGET says I'm way far south when picked up on DME and VOR)

I was under the impression I was doing the right stuff given that I don't have FMC... So am I doing it wrong? Is this not the way to do it? IF I'm not doing the wrong process could it be a bug with X-Plane or me not setting up the 727? But mainly I want to know if I'm on the right track or not.

I wish you all my warmest regards and and appreciation in advance

CM

[Nelson L.]

I'm short on time, so I'll update with more details later (assuming someone else doesn't answer). I'll start off by saying that I've flown KSAN-KLAS in the 732. If you go to PEAware and search top routes from KSAN-KLAS, you'll get PEBLE4.SXC LAX DAG.CLARR2 - meaning that J9 is not necessarily needed (going direct is, IMO, easier discounting XP VOR receiving distance issues...). Before I start with the route, I'll assume you meant the Santa Catalina VOR (SXC), not the Santa Monica VOR (SMO). Your first steps are good assuming that before intercepting the SXC 097 radial (i.e. 277 course), you intercepted the Mission Bay (MZB) 293 radial to first arrive at the PEBLE waypoint (intersection while /A). You would then track 277 to SXC before turning DCT to LAX VOR (assuming you were to not file J9). In fact, I can't even find J9 on the World HI chart.... Doesn't help that 359 and 056 are not reciprocals - the reciprocal of 359 is 179, the reciprocal of 056 is 236. Not sure how you're doing your math there - search youtube "How to Find VOR Reciprocals" (I personally use the +2 -2 method). The DAG receiving distance is a known XP issue - controllers will accept "Unable to receive DAG, request dead reckoning leg until receiving". That's the reason you're ending up South. How to fly this SID is covered in the written description at the bottom of the document.


My Flight (note that I received DCT LAX before reaching SXC - the off-course section in the middle is the dead reckoning leg, where I didn't lead the turn at LAX enough) - http://peaware.pilotedge.net/flight.cfm?id=97623

Edit - Checked simroutes, but I'm still not seeing J9 on Skyvector. Either way, controllers will accept and issue a clearance going direct LAX after SXC (99% of the time)

[taymas]

Hi thanks for getting back to me - yes I meant Santa CATALINA, sorry

The reason why I use 359 (SXC) and not the reciprocal is because I'm headed towards the LAX VOR, if I use the reciprocal my plane autopilot will attempt to turn around back towards SXC! Then I use 59' course for LAX VOR becausr similarly, I am headed towards DAGGET - if I use the reciprocal 179 the autopilot will turn back around towards LAX and not to DAG.

I'm not focused on the online aspect yet, I'm just trying to follow the original plan for practice - I've seen your flight in the link given, it doesn't look as bad as I've attempted to do so. Ive tried 4 times and will try again.
Can we forget about airways etc purely since I'm flying OFFLINE and using the route for practice... is it a case of X-Plane's VOR data etc not placed consitant with real world data?

Ok, should I treat the VORs as direct way points and exclude the radial pathways? Is this how it's done when flying on pilotegedge?

Regards

[kullery]

taymas,

The data you are using (from simroutes.com) is expressed as TRUE not MAGNETIC.

From their user manual:

• The Navigation Log lists details about each waypoint in your route such as:
• The Waypoints ICAO code
• The Name of the Waypoint
• The Frequency of the Waypoint, if applicable
• The Airway or Procedure (SID/STAR) that the Waypoint is a part of
• The True Heading required to reach this Waypoint from the previous Waypoint. (This does not take Magnetic Variation into account)
  
• The Distance between this Waypoint and the Previous Waypoint in Nautical Miles
• The Total Distance travelled along this Route, from Waypoint to Waypoint
• The Current AIRAC Navigation Cycle that the Navigation Log is based on

EDIT: Skyvector link showing the J9 on the IFR H4 chart (HIGH ALTITUDE)

[Nelson L.]

Ah yes, wasn't thinking. Reciprocal wouldn't make sense - Ken's point holds true though (the courses you were using were off).

[taymas]

Oh wow that makes so much sense, magnetic, not true no worries Nelson, I probably wasn't clear enough I was so stressed out pulling my hairs

Right so how would one get a hold of magnetic values as opposed to true? simroutes doesn't list them anywhere - what other flight plan sites list the magnetic courses? If these magnetic course information do not exist, then how would I navigate without FMC? I am only familiar with simroutes, I haven't used any other sites such as PE or skyvectors. I am sorry if I'm being annoying with my ignorance, and I just wan't to get familiar with the aircraft and route for offline flight only, before I embark on studying for PilotEdge.

I can't thank both of you enough, I look forward to your replies

[Keith Smith]

From the skyvector airport detail page for KSAN (http://skyvector.com/airport/SAN/San-Di ... al-Airport)

Coordinates: N32°44.01' / W117°11.38'
Located 02 miles W of San Diego, California on 663 acres of land. View all Airports in California.
Estimated Elevation is 16 feet MSL.
Magnetic Variation from 1980 is 14° East

So, you have to subtract 14 fro the true headings to get the magnetic heading. The memory aid is "east is least, west is best" referring to subtracting for east variation and adding for west variation. Airports on the east coast have west variation if you'd like to see some examples.

[taymas]

AAARGH you guys are amazing! And thanks Keith (I beleive you're the founder ) I've followed what you suggested and it works flawlessly! Furthermore, I plugged the route into SkyVector, and it shows the MAGNETIC course!! I am so happy now I can't wait to start me PE training from V-1

Thanks guys - and I'm blown away at how quick of a response you get in these forums

[Nelson L.]

If I may make a suggestion, I would do at least the V-ratings and the first few I-ratings (up to the I4) before starting the jets. It'll help you get comfortable on the radio, understand and comprehend ATC instructions in a more timely fashion, and build up your skills so your not behind a /A jet. It'll also probably save ATC some trouble too (not that I'm saying anything against you).

[Keith Smith]

You're welcome. Nelson is on the right track. With great gross weight comes great responsibility

It's for more realistic for a pilot to be making errors associated with student pilots while flying a typical student pilot training aircraft (C172, P28A, etc). Once you're in a jet in a real world, it's generally assumed that you know what you're doing. The same is largely true here.

That said, if it helps out at all, here's a shared cockpit flight from SAN-LAS in the very same plane (737-200): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMVsRmR9fDM

Welcome to the network, enjoy!