Question for controllers

Question for controllers

Postby not rhys » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:45 am

Yesterday I was bored and was reading through some older posts, and I came across one where someone had a situation where a controller was allegedly rude to him (link: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7080). One reply to the post was from someone identified as a real world controller, and they went through some of the things that ticked off controllers. One of the things he said was:
"'Twenty-four fifty-seven in the box with a flash.' How about, 'squawk-2-4-5-7 and ident.'"

I have heard real world pilots, "YouTube pilots," and people on the network using this phraseology, and while I understand it is not standard, it doesn't seem like there is any harm when this is used. So my question is: is it okay to say this? And it is annoying to you controllers (like the infamous "with you")?

My second question is what are your personal pet peeves?

Thanks, Rhys
Student pilot, EICK
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Re: Question for controllers

Postby Marcus Becker » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:21 pm

Keep in mind that pilots (both real world and simulator) have a plethora of bad habits. Heck, even controllers pick up on them. Is there anything wrong with it? Not until it causes a problem and forces action.

If you want it by the book, have a look in the Aeronautical Information Manual. https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ia/aim.pdf
4-1-20 h. Radar Beacon Phraseology
Point 3 discusses your exact example.

My biggest pet peeve is the deep breath and blow in the mic as your mic test. Save my ears please! Plus, what would you expect in return from doing that?

Another good one is a pilot not understanding the difference between "Squawk VFR" and "Maintain VFR". So many times I've given "Maintain VFR" and then the pilot will change the beacon code.
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Re: Question for controllers

Postby Shawn Goldsworthy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:24 pm

To add to what Marcus said, "twenty four fifty seven with a flash" doesn't bother me at all, or "We got got him on the fish finder" in reference to TCAS, it's stuff I hear daily, meh.


The blow into the mic thing bothers me. Other pet peeves I have, and these by no means make me want to pull my hair out, but after hearing them 100 times in a shift, it gets old especially when the frequency is busy. These are:


1)A pilot who calls for a radio check every single time they log on to the network and then immediately calls for an IFR clearance. It goes something like this:

Pilot: San Luis Ground, N12345 radio check
ATC: N12345, San Luis Ground, five by five
Pilot: San Luis ground N12345 request IFR to Santa Barbara..........


Just call up for clearance right away, if you don't get a response, your mic isn't working. Plus, if you just did a flight a few minutes ago, chances are your radio is still working.


2) "Ahhhhh Santa Barbara ahhhhhhh approach, ahhhhhhh, this is ahhhhhhh, N12345, ahhhhhhhh, with you ahhhhhhhh, request ahhhhhh flight following to ahhhhhhhhhh Bakersfield............"

Best tip I can give for this, especially if you're new, think about exactly what you have to say, say it a couple of times in your head, and then key the mic.
Shawn Goldsworthy
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Re: Question for controllers

Postby HRutila » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:22 pm

not rhys wrote:I have heard real world pilots, "YouTube pilots," and people on the network using this phraseology, and while I understand it is not standard, it doesn't seem like there is any harm when this is used. So my question is: is it okay to say this? And it is annoying to you controllers (like the infamous "with you")?

It is a much bigger problem than people realize. The number of miscommunications that take place because of laxadaisical phraseology in real life are truly astounding. There's no need for anyone to sound like a robot on frequency, but there is definitely a need to stick with verbatim readbacks to the maximum extent possible, avoid pointless filler words, and to be concise.

I teach full-time in the DFW area. I talk to Regional Approach (our SOCAL) and Ft. Worth Center on an almost daily basis. Even though I've never met them in person, and even though I fly under a bunch of different call signs, controllers have started to recognize my voice. If I were consistently lazy about my approach to communicating with them, I would become "that guy" every controller hates working. (Go tour any ATC facility, and they'll all tell you the call sign of the pilot whose voice they dread hearing.) On the contrary, I have a great working relationship with these controllers, established over a period of time where professionalism has been demonstrated. This is really crucial for VFR operations where what ATC provides to us is usually on an optional, "workload-permitting" basis.

My advice to every pilot, whether they're on Pilotedge only or are pilots in real life, is to simply refuse to be average. Be willing to learn the intricacies of radio communication. Go tour an ATC facility or two and meet the people talking on the other end of the mic. Listen to what they have to say, and apply what you've learned from them every time you go flying. Be cognizant of what methods are or are not working when you fly. If you're constantly having to repeat information in a request for simple taxi instructions or a request for flight following, maybe you need to change your cadence or rate of speech. Maybe you need to re-order the bits of information as you present them to the controller. Learn what information your ground controller, approach controller, center controller, and flight service briefer actually need from you, and then figure out how to best present it to them. If you've pissed off a controller, figure out why. All of these things play into being a professional pilot and being able to have an enjoyable time flying with ATC -- both here on PE and out in the real world.
Harold Rutila
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Re: Question for controllers

Postby not rhys » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:03 am

Thanks everybody!
Student pilot, EICK
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Re: Question for controllers

Postby jx_ » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:40 pm

1) When pilot's don't listen to what is said because they are expecting something else. The most common one's:

- 'N12345 cross XXX at 4000'; 'cross XXX at or above 4000'
- 'N12345 standby'; 'N12345 would like xxxxx xxx xx xxxx xx x x xx etc'
- 'aircraft calling say callsign only'; 'N12345 would like xxx xx x xx xx etc'


2) Pilots who wait until 1/2 mile final to ask for a switch to tower. As a general rule you should receive a switch to tower prior to 5 miles to go...


3) back seat drivers who congest the radio every four minutes asking if it's time to ________.


4) see Marcus, Harold, and Shawn's posts above!
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Re: Question for controllers

Postby jtbarton » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:51 pm

Great thread, it is nice to hear what controllers dislike to try and perfect my communication skills. But, with all due respect, I find there to be a fine line between a controller that is aware of you and a controller that has forgot about you. The hardest transmission I seem to make every flight is when I am unsure if that controller forgot about me or not. I am not trying to be a know it all, nor am I trying to show the controller up, I just don't know.
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Re: Question for controllers

Postby Shawn Goldsworthy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:43 am

If you think we may have forgotten about you (and we sometimes do) a subtle nudge always works like asking for an altimeter setting, then we will get that oops moment.
Shawn Goldsworthy
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Re: Question for controllers

Postby jx_ » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:52 am

Jack,

Is it dead or is it super busy? dead usually means forgot; busy usually means behind but not forgotten. As Shawn said, if you're not sure you can be discrete by saying something like:

What [heading/altitude/speed/radial/frequency] did you want?
What's the Altimeter?
UAL322 is [distance/fix]

That will always be enough to get us to look at you and verify you're where you should be with the clearances you need.


But in any case, don't be intimidated to call when you're:
- above 500 AGL on departure "UAL322 airborne"
- at 5 mile final "UAL322 5 miles"
- 1000 to go in a climb "UAL322 leveling"
- LOC alive without being told 'vector through localizer' "UAL322 localizer active"
- if you're too high turning final "UAL322 needs lower"
- anytime you get a terrain or traffic warning

Always report a time sensitive or safety related issue. If it would cause more workload or reduce the flight's safety, go ahead and call. Asking if it's time to switch to approach 80 miles from the airport is inconsequential and a waste or radio time. Asking to switch to tower on 5 mile final is teamwork! Waiting until 3/4 mile final to ask for a switch to tower increases workload and decreases safety.
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Re: Question for controllers

Postby FDXDave » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:03 am

So I've just signed up for my two week trial on Pilotedge. I've done 3 flights. I have 150 hours on that other network. I'm not a real world pilot. But i really enjoy this environment as i am disabled and not able to fly for real. So i think you guys do a great job. quick question.
It appears in X plane that when i tune into ATIS the Code is different than the code listed on Myflightroute.com.
I've been using Myflightroute.com / ATIS player in lue of using xplanes radio because i believe you guys are the ones who update that website. Am i right...am i getting the code from the right place. I would assume so because no one has told me i was wrong. And a controller may not know this but if pilotedge uses xplanes radios why would the two codes not match? For realism I'd rather use my cockpit radio but i think it's wrong.
Thanks for all the hard work you guys do.
Dave
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