John Wayne-Orange County(KSNA/SNA) Feedback

[1129K]

Hi everyone,

I was just thinking I could give some feedback. I really like what PE stands for and I love the controlling, there is just one little thing. John Wayne Airport. I know that controllers are controlling several airports at once, but I still think that they should be following all procedures that are applied in the real world, or what is the point of "Being as real as it get"? John Wayne is my home airport and I fly out of there(GA/VFR) at least once a month and I use PE as a practice source to keep me up to date and help my with my coms. I just don't care too much for the fact that the controllers treat it like any other airport that you would fly out of VFR. At John Wayne you have to call up clearance delivery(after you get your ATIS) whether you are VFR or IFR and get your clearance. You can take four different VFR departures(Orange to the North East, El Toro to the South East, Mesa to the North West, and Newport to the South West- They are all certain headings you have to fly out of SNA) If I am not wrong if you say the departure and then local(EX: "El Toro Local Departure") then that means you want flight following, but if you just say the departure (EX: "El Toro Departure) then you don't want flight following. After you get your clearance you contact ground(my last flight the controller used the clearance freq. as the ground freq....) and they taxi you to one of the 3 run-ups and then to the chosen runway(usually 19L for VFR traffic). Now if you are on the East side you would taxi from the midfield run-up to 19L via Charlie, Kilo, hold short 19L. A lot of the controllers I have dealt with taxi me either up Alpha to Lima(past the run-up) or Alpha, Hotel, Charlie, Lima(past the run up also and at the wrong holding taxi way). Those are the only things that are really bothering me. Sorry if it was too long!

*Pilots flying out of SNA: If you are using runway 19L it is a 45 degree departure and base/final leg!*

[Keith Smith]

Sean,

Much of the 'local' information about the procedures used at an airfield are not available in the documents to which we have easy access. Additionally, there is a 'scale' issue with what you're describing. There are 30+ towered airports in ZLA. Most of the time, we have one ground controller working all of them. That's a lot to remember or have to look up! You might end up having to wait longer for your taxi instruction while the controller references that information, even if we were to compile a summary of all of those procedures.

We have worked very hard to produce correct IFR departure instructions to help produce a very realistic experience for student IFR pilots at their local airports.

I don't think there's a great deal of value, from a pilot training perspective, between the experience of being told to taxi to a runway, or being told to taxi to an interim point for the run-up and then taxiing to the runway.

Remember, too, that there is an almost endless variety of scenery among the sim community ranging widely in quality. It's a miracle that we can get people to the right runway at all some times.

Regarding the El Toro departure, etc, we do have those in our SOPS:

Canyon Departure (J/M Class Departure Runway 1 Only): Runway heading, maintain VFR at or below 5000'
El Toro Departure (P/Q Class Departure, NE-SE): Heading 080, maintain VFR at or below 3000'
Mesa Departure (M/P/Q Class Departure, SXC/SLI/VTU Departures): Heading 210-240, maintain VFR at or below 2400'
Newport Departure (M/P/Q Class Departure, TRM/OCN Departures): Heading 150, maintain VFR at or below 2400'
Ocean Departure (J/M Class Departure, Runway 19 Only): Heading 175, maintain VFR at or below 5000'
Orange Departure (M/P/Q Class Departure, NW-NE): Heading 330, maintain VFR at or below 2400'

So, request them any time you like. Don't expect ATC to issue them, unprompted, however, for reasons that should be fairly obvious. You will notice that we do issue departure headings, though.

Lastly, some Class C airports insist on pilots calling Clearance Delivery, others do not. I just flew out of a Charlie last week and called ground for taxi with my direction of flight and intended cruise altitude....and off I went.

Try not to get hung up on the fact that certain local procedures are missing. Every pilot knows THEIR local airport...but if you replace 60+ controllers, each with several months of locale-specific training, with ONE person...there are going to be subtle compromises. If you did want the fidelity of the 60+ people, then the monthly subscription fee wouldn't t be $19.95/mth, either.

We provide a plausible experience. We do not claim to replicate the exact experience of flying out of every airport. We still think that the service is fairly ground breaking in what it does provide, and is unmatched anywhere in the marketplace.

[jdzurisin]

I suppose what Sean was potentially trying to say is that he has some local knowledge that he would like to pass along to enhance the potential fidelity of everyone's experience. Thanks for that!

Cheers,

~Jason

[Colin Payette]

I agree that it'd be way too intensive for the controllers with what we're paying. However, I am glad you posted this information because I will be making a KSEE-KSNA round trip flight sometime in the next month and I'm going to bust out this knowledge to impress my instructor

[Keith Smith]

I suppose what Sean was potentially trying to say is that he has some local knowledge that he would like to pass along to enhance the potential fidelity of everyone's experience. Thanks for that!

I read it differently, largely because of this part...

I know that controllers are controlling several airports at once, but I still think that they should be following all procedures that are applied in the real world, or what is the point of "Being as real as it get"?

This implies that if our procedures don't match the real world 100%, then there isn't a point to the service. I completely disagree with that point. Look at the amazing feedback we've received regarding the service so far, even without local knowledge about run-up areas.

That said, we are (and already were) in discussions about increasing the fidelity of VFR departure and arrival instructions at SOME airports (not all). These would be at airports which either have a commercial customer based there, or are known to be popular airports here on the network. These procedures, unfortunately, are rarely documented in the material that we have access to, so it's going to take a while to collect them.

[arb65912]

Gentlemen, I could not resist to reply ... but I am not looking for heated argument here, just expressing my opinion.

If anybody expect PE to match the pants color controllers wear at particular airport and what kind of mood they are .... I am sorry, it will not happen now or anytime in the future.
PE frequency management and Controllers skills ARE as close as you can get in virtual skies.
There is a saying that the hunger increases while the person is eating which means we always get used to the things we are getting and still want more.
I perfectly understand the trend to improve things and I am totally for it but we need to be a bit more objective here.
PE or any other network will not be able to emulate custom airport traffic rules unless the management hires real people from these airport.

I think that PE idea of creating professional, interactive network was the biggest achievement since the very first flight flight simulators attempts to recreate real life Air Traffic Control and became a success that it can be clearly visible through PE users input.
Let's not request impossible things.

I would like to say again, I am not looking for a heated discussion here, it is just my opinion on the subject.