VFR Flight Plans

[Jeff N]

I've been doing as Steven mentioned above, filing IFR but indicating VFR. Should I not be filing at all? As I get used to the system here, I'm mainly just doing VFR flights between class D airports without F/F.

[Keith Smith]

Jeff, for now, don't file. The X-Plane client specifically says "file IFR flight plan.." as the menu option because it's only for IFR flight plans. This will be changing, simply so that PEaware will list your flight, but for now, don't file anything.

If you call ATC and request flight following, they'll create a strip for you and your flight will show up on the web site.

Keith

[Jeff N]

Got it, thanks Keith. I guess I thought there was some benefit to having controllers know where I was going and what route I was taking, for traffic handling purposes. These are the sorts of mistakes I'm hoping will diminish when I start real flying lessons.

[Keith Smith]

Jeff, that's exactly the mistake that I'm talking about Other networks encourage pilots to file VFR flight plans, which then leads to them calling ATC asking for "VFR as filed..." or otherwise expecting ATC to know where they're going.

It's not a bad thing to 'cold call' ATC when you're VFR to ask for flight following. It's not a bad thing to depart a towered airport and not tell them where you're going. Just give them a direction of flight so they know how you're going to leave the pattern, that's about it!

Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFaftfkMyUU

Watch that video from the 1:55 mark. That's a cold call to ATC for flight following across Charlie airspace and into a Class D airport.

Had I filed a VFR flight plan and then called the guy asking for VFR as filed, the silence would've been deafening

[Simon Ambrose]

With all the apparent confusion and mis-information about "VFR Flight Plans" , "VFR Clearances" etc, and the way most other sim networks treat VFR flights "incorrectly", I think it is a shame that PE does not incorporate some form of Flight Services into their system. If PE to to help both Sim Pilots, as well as Real World Student & Private Pilots, having some form of FSS would seem to be of significant leaning benefit to those flying VFR.

One could accept that a PE FSS cannot provide realistic Weather Information would seem to be an acceptable limitation,( due to limitation of the Sim and excessive resouces needed to provide detailed weather information), but the total lack of any FSS services does nothing to help those RL Student & Private Pilots practice and become proficient in understanding and using the FSS services in real life.

I suspect a very high proportion of Student pilots, and even Non-Instrument Private Pilots, do not understand the different way that VFR and an IFR flight plans are handled and processed differently and seperatly within the ATC system.

I accept that PE is what it is, and compromises have had to be made, to enable the system to function.
However, with all the other attention to details, and the strive for realism, this is the first area of PE that I personally feel is dissappointingly missing.

Just by 2 cents, worth exactly that

Simon

[Keith Smith]

The "apparent confusion" is generally exhibited by those who haven't yet started taking flying lessons, and is reinforced by controllers on other networks who are either not real world controllers or are not real world pilots. A pilot files a flight plan (VFR or IFR) and it shows up on their scope. Quite understandably, when the pilot calls for departure, the controller knows where the pilot is going, so there are no questions asked about aircraft type, destination, intended cruise altitude, etc. That's been the problem all along.

The solution to THAT problem does not require the introduction of FSS. The solution is simply for the controller to not be aware that a plan was filed (either to REALLY not be aware, or to simulate not being aware. I am ready to test the server mod for the former).

If the controller is unaware, one of two things will happen, the pilot will sense the controller isn't aware and will provide the information required, or the pilot will make a remark which implies that he/she thinks the controller knows where the aircraft is going by virtue of the VFR plan that was filed, and the controller will address it, ie. aircraft pulls up to runway and swaps to tower, "ready for takeoff rwy 31". "Say direction of flight," "oh, we filed a VFR flight plan, we're heading to Palm Springs, did it not go through?" "ATC doesn't receive VFR flight plans by default, they're for search and rescue only." Boom. Lesson learned. At no time was FSS needed to make that happen.

I'm not concerned that you're disappointed that we haven't implemented it. I wish you could've been a fly on the wall for the 4 weeks leading up to the launch to see just how close this came to not launching on time at all. There are still many things to be implemented in the clients, including real COM2 support.

It's not out of the question to add FSS in the future, but I strongly disagree that it's a much needed service here. I learned plenty about FSS during my private pilot training, and I dutifully opened VFR flight plans with FSS on many of my cross countries as a student, and then a couple more as a private pilot. The people who are not well-informed about FSS, in my opinion at least, are those that haven't started r/w flying lessons yet. It's perfectly understandable, too, because the position isn't simulated in the environments in which they have flown. Is it worth spending lots of money to fix THAT problem? No.

Until I can find the time to implement a solution which would allow us to operate FSS using an existing controlling position, I won't consider adding this unless we have so much excess income that I wouldn't care about spending the extra $44k/yr to staff it.

*giggle*

[Simon Ambrose]

Thanks for the detailed reply and explanation.

Good to see at the end you were still able to let out a *giggle*

Simon

[Daddy O]

Like I said, a VFR flight plan isn't about being handled by ATC. it is just so they know where to look for your wreckage when you are overdue. PilotEdge is doing it properly.

Admittingly, it would be good practice for VFR pilots if we could open and close flightplans with CD, just to get used to adding it to our process. Woe be to the r/w pilot who forgets to close his flightplan. The FAA gets irate when they call looking for you and find you have been home drinking beer for the last 2 hours (so I am told.) Since it involves no real interaction from ATC, pilots could just call CD and ask to open and close their flightplan and CD could just fake it, with no change to the plugin or manpower.

[Keith Smith]

I'd rather not spend more time on this specific issue. We're going to let people file VFR flight plans so that they can be tracked by the existing stats system, and that's it.

Having clearance delivery is more harmful than not having it at all and has the very real ability to result in negative learning. Flight plans are opened with FSS after you're in the air, and they include a wheels up time. On a very, very good day, you can ask ATC to relay a closing message to FSS for you after you land, but I would not be happy to have that be the 'default' way to do it.

In short, you'll be able to file VFR flight plans for PEaware-tracking reasons in the X-Plane client soon (just as you can with the PE client for FS9/X now).

One day in the future, you _might_ be able to call Flight Service on 122.0 while enroute and have someone who responds so you can open/close plans. I cannot stress how far down on the list that secondary part is, though.

[Keith Smith]

Update: the PC and Mac builds of the X-Plane now permit filing of VFR flight plans. The server has been modified so that controllers are unable to see pilot-filed VFR flight plans. This allows pilots to file the plan and have their flight show up on PEaware.