I-2: Request ILS Runway 24

[ChristophPreinfalk]

I've been practicing the I-2 a few times now and (after a few hiccups) I'm getting the hang of it. I've been requesting the ILS for Runway 24 right after being handed over to Socal Approach and being cleared for the visual approach. That worked for me. But: Is that the right time for me to request the ILS? Or should I do that sooner with John Wayne Clearance or maybe with Socal Departure?

Another question: After I'm done with the I-2 I'll obviously do some more TEC route flying and I'll enjoy leaving it up to the controllers to either make me do visual approach, vectored approach or following the approach plate. How do PE controllers decide between those 3? Given the fact that lots of people don't fly with real weather and time of day, do they just assume (if I don't state otherwise) that I'm on real weather and time of day and therefore they'll automatically clear me for ILS and only during nice weather they automatically clear me for visual approach, or do they ALWAYS default me to visual approach and I must request ILS specifically, no matter what?

[julio.elizalde]

You should make your request for an instrument approach with your approach controller. Controllers at your departure airport don't usually coordinate such requests unless the airport is extremely close by.

As for approaches at other airports, it really depends. Some major class B and C airports run ILS approaches even in VFR conditions. Generally speaking , most controllers will assign an approach that is appropriate for the weather and that most easily facilitates traffic flow into the airport. You can always make a request for an approach and the controller will accommodate you if traffic levels allow.

A side fact that you may find interesting and relevant: The San Francisco Int'l Airport generally runs parallel visual approaches in VMC to accommodate about 60 arrivals per hour. Since the runways are only 750ft apart, they can't authorize parallel instrument approaches. As soon as the weather becomes poor, they often will switch to instrument approaches on one runway and the 60 arrivals in VMC becomes 25-30 in IMC. Cutting the amount of arrivals the airport can handle in one hour causes about 2 to 2.5 hour delays throughout the country.

[Keith Smith]

If you're going to be flying an instrument approach procedure and the airfield has radar coverage AND the controller has the final approach course depicted on the scope, then you're likely to receive vectors to the final approach course. An exception would be if your cleared route of flight leads to an IAF and there is no procedure turn associated with that segment. In those cases, you might just fly the full approach as the vectors may not save you a great deal of time.

Otherwise, if there's no radar in area, or the controller doesn't have the final approach course depicted (this happens frequently with remote airports that are covered by Enroute controllers), you're going to be flying the full approach, period.

Regarding when to request it, the approach should be made as soon as you're speaking to the controller who's responsible for handling the vectors for your approach. Generally, if you hear the controller asking if you have the weather for the destination airfield, then that's the guy who you want to request the approach from. The Aeronautical Information Manual also suggests that if you want to request an approach other than the one in use that you make the request as soon as possible with the relevant controller.

Lastly, there are certain weather requirements that must be present for a controller to be able to vector you for a visual approach. So, it is not necessarily the case that you will be vectored for the visual approach by default at most fields. It's entirely dependent on the weather or what you've requested.

[ChristophPreinfalk]

Thank you both for your responses! Now it makes perfect sense.

That's very interesting about SFO. I watched an in-cockpit video of a Lufthansa A388 flying from Munich to San Francisco, with ATC audio (watched it before I started on PE, this reminds me that I need to watch it again, thanks to PE it will be so much more interesting). They were vectored to a visual approach and I couldn't believe that they landed that plane by hand. I just assumed that airliners, especially heavy metal ones, don't ever land by hand, unless there is no ILS available. Now I understand why they do it!

[Keith Smith]

SFO uses CVAPs' (charted visual approach procedures) in good weather. They're a blast to fly. It's a daily occurrence to see aircraft staggered very slightly for 28L/R (usually for wake) while they're launching departures from 1L/R. They run the 28L/R guys fairly close so they can get as many 1L/R departures out as they can. Otherwise, it would really hurt the departure rate.

It's a very elegant system when you get to see it in action. I used to live up on a hill overlooking the San Mateo Bridge. I can't tell you how many hours I spent listening to the SFO final approach controller handling the parallel visuals before starting online controlling myself. I had an ear to ear grin when I got to set up my first two aircraft for 28L and 28R at the same time. The pilots loved it, too, just as most of them do in real life.

If you get a chance, check out the SFO charted visuals, the Tipp Toe Visual 28L and the Quiet Bridge Visual for 28L/R at http://airnav.com/airport/ksfo. Scroll down, they're bundled in with the other instrument approaches.

[julio.elizalde]

You'll all enjoy this at SFO:

I was once at the airport getting ready to fly out to the east coast and was waiting for boarding while listening to LiveATC on my phone. The ground controller received a taxi request from a United B773 heading to China. As the controller gave them taxi instructions for 28L (28L/R at SFO are used to heavy departures), I was shocked when the captain requested 10R because of UAL's SOPs. It seems they had a 5kt tail wind and required 10R to avoid it. They sent the aircraft out to 10R, found an 8 mile window in the 28L/R arrivals to send the B773 out. As they held short of the runway, tower gave them the wind and the captain said the tail wind had changed. They had to taxi all the way out to 28R for departure. Now you know why you have to plan for taxi fuel. Fun stuff!