Clarification Dep VNY for Colis. route

[Ryan B]

Approach told me I busted the burbank C tonight. I think it would be handled differently in real life.

On the ground when I was ready for takeoff I asked for the straight out departure for the coliseum route southbound with FF to SNA. VNY tower issued my code and dep freq, then cleared me for takeoff. From my perspective, I would see VNY tower coordinating my departure into the BUR class C (whether via flight strips or landline etc), since I asked for FF right off the bat. I wasn't switched to departure until I was into the class C but I wasn't worried since again, I presumed they'd coordinate my departure.

Am I to stay out of the C even though I got a code and asked for FF until I'm radar identified? This is confusing to me because socal knows I'm coming off VNY on a code.

It would be different if it were a B because I need specific clearance. In this case the facility overseeing VNY airspace knows I'm coming with a code and FF request.

This is also different if I were departing VNY without FF... of course I'd need to stay clear of the C.

Check out 7-8-7 in the .65

Am I right or what?

[Pieces]

We had this discussion a few weeks ago about the exact same thing. If you're in the Charlie before you have contact with departure you've busted the Charlie.

I originally thought the same thing you did. The problem is the regs state you must be in contact with the controller who owns the airspace. VNY tower has no authority over BUR's Charlie. Therefore before you've established two way comms with departure you have not met the requirements for entering the airspace, FF or no.

EDIT: Here is the older thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2512&start=10

[julio.elizalde]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2512&p=15845&hilit= ... s+c#p15845

The forum post above thoroughly discusses this topic. Keith makes the following point:

"The correct procedure would've been to remain below or otherwise outside the Class C airspace until you have established ATC with the controlling agency (Socal Departure). Being in touch with VNY tower doesn't cut it. Think of it this way...VNY tower only owns the VNY tower airspace. If you entered the Class C and nearly hit a jet arrival into Burbank because you weren't yet talking to the controller who worked the deps/arrivals at BUR, then the system simply wouldn't scale. Hence, the need to be in touch not just with any old controller....but with the controller who has jurisdiction for the airspace. Generally, that will be Socal Approach."

[Keith Smith]

I can see how the request for f/f would lead you to believe that all is good, but as a pilot you shouldn't assume that it gives you a ticket to enter the airspace prior to establishing comms. Unlike the case of a f/f aircraft transitioning the tops of some Deltas enroute, which approach MUST coordinate (per the .65) with the towers on behalf of the pilot, the reverse case is NOT true.

Yes, tower has told Socal you're coming. Yes, a strip has been created for you. Yes, I would expect a prompt handoff from tower to Socal to avoid a level-off prior to hitting the Charlie...but none of that would lead me to believe as a pilot that I could enter the Class C prior to establishing contact with Socal. I'd even go as far to say that if it happened in real life, they might not even say anything. Still, I don't think it's a bad thing for our controllers here to point out the binding reg.

[Ryan B]

How do you guys interpret 7-8-7 then? It seems to me that unless the class D tower tells the acft otherwise, the pilot can enter the class C. I think there would be an LOA allowing the acft to enter....

7-8-7. ADJACENT AIRPORT OPERATIONS
a. Aircraft that will penetrate Class C airspace
after departing controlled airports within or adjacent
to ClassC airspace shall be provided the same
services as those aircraft departing the primary
airport. Procedures for handling this situation shall be
covered in a LOA or a facility directive, as
appropriate.

[Keith Smith]

I interpret that to mean that radar service will be provided to aircraft all the way to the edge of the Outer Area, along with all the other Class C services documented in that chapter. The LOA's may well even include language that allows aircraft to saunter into the Charlie when leaving the Delta prior to establishing comms as long as the target is flashed to the departure controller, or through some other means of coordination. However, none of that information is made available to the pilot and I would still avoid the case by requesting an early freq change if you're climbing quickly and the controller doesn't catch it.

I'll be the first to say that in single controller ops, we can be slow to affect the handoff from local to radar...so I could see a case where you're 'stuck' on the tower freq and then by the time you get the handoff to Socal, it's "too late" and you've climbed into the Charlie. The late handoff is our fault, but ultimately, as the pilot, I'd remain keenly aware of what airspace you're in at any given time and adjust accordingly, either with a level off, or ping the tower for a freq change so you can get over to Socal for the climb.

[Ryan B]

Fair enough... my downfall is I come at Pilot Edge knowing the ATC background so I make a lot of assumptions on how things would be handled in real life.

[Keith Smith]

If this did happen in real life, you could still be violated, as far as I know. I say that because I definitely want to avoid things happening on PE that couldn't happen in real life...and far as I know, this doesn't fall into the category of a "PE-only regulation."

[Ryan B]

Understood. I guess my "real life" argument is that there probably is some sort of LOA in place that allows VNY FF departures to fly a certain heading into the C. (Or maybe there's one that makes them go clear of the C)

[Alex Stjepanovic]

Ryan you'd appear to be correct.

I just checked the latest LOA available to us, and it indeed specifies the case you mentioned. Only J and M types appear to even need releases, unless otherwise notified. A requested altitude is entered into the FDIO, and the aircraft is given the squawk and departure frequency. The routes and headings that are assignable in different ops, send aircraft into different sectors(no brainer).

There are two pieces of info that further confirm how this is done:

1. Tower shall ensure that the aircraft handed off via ARTS, have the callsign, type and destination within the data block.

2. Tower shall change VFR departures to TRACON frequency as soon as possible after Class C airspace requirements are established.


This is all worded as for "...aircraft that request class C services". It's pretty darn clear that the pilots want these services then. I certainly wouldn't ask a pilot who requests flight following, if he also wanted class C services. That wouldn't be very sane of me as a controller



The tower is also to assume that ILS8 is in use at BUR, unless otherwise notified - This helps in separation. The final piece of the puzzle, is that VNY tower also owns a small chunk of the inner core of the BUR C, so it already has some C services to worry about either way, which is also in the LOA.


I disagree that 7-8-7 has to do with servicing the entire area around the charlie. There are a number of sections in .65 that talk about satellite airports. This is clearly one of them. It talks about satellite airports, whether towered or not, about penetration, the LOA, etc. All those factors are met here - The aircraft will depart from a satellite airport with a request for C services, thus intending to go through the C, and there is a LOA describing all this - Done!