When to descend after approach clearance

[twharrell]

This evening I flew from Santa Barbara to KSFO. I was on the BSR2 arrival, outside of MENLO, level at 6000 ft., when the approach controller, said, "After Menlo, cleared for the ILS Rwy 28R." No descent clearance was given, so I did not descend, which meant I was quite high when intercepting the localizer, and thus had to execute a slam dunk. When I was cleared for the ILS approach, did that also imply that I was cleared to descend lower than 6000 ft? I'm used to getting an altitude clearance to be maintained until localizer intercept. I was able to get down and execute a nice landing, but it was a little harry. I probably should have gone missed and tried a more stabilized approach, but it worked out.... this time.

Todd

[Vincent Meier]

What the controller is saying is that after Menlo use the approach chart for ILS Rwy 28R and follow the step down altitudes depicted on the chart - this should also ensure you are at the right altitude to intercept the glideslope. Cleared means go for it!! Go for the approach...you still need clearance for the landing from tower.

[twharrell]

Thanks, Vincent.

[Mark Hargrove]

Todd,

Do you remember the actual phraseology of your clearance. Although Vince is correct that you're allowed to descend as depicted on the approach plate once you receive your clearance, the phraseology you quoted is unusual. Was there more to it?

-M.

[twharrell]

Mark,

It's been a few days now, so I'll do my best. I was given a croosing restriction at BOLDR of 10,000 ft, and at or below 250 kts, after which I was cleared to 6000 ft. I then got the clearance above:

"Citation 453DW, after MENLO, cleared for the ILS 28R approach." I don't recall any other altitude clearance or any other instructions.

Maybe the controller, if he remembers, can chime in. As I am relatively new to PE and only have my PPL, it is possible I didn't get part of the clearance, which would be my fault, of course.

Todd

[rgrazian]

Hi Guys,

The controller will usually give you something like this. "N6137Q, 2 miles from (waypoint), fly heading xxx, maintain xxxx until established on the localizer, cleared for the ILS (you name it) approach" Once you are ESTABLISHED on a the approach, you can descend per the approach plate provided you were cleared for the approach. Hence the "maintain 2000 until established". In the case of the example above, you could not descend until you were tracking the localizer. Yesterday in a r/w IFR flight in some good IMC, I received the following clearance into Brenham, TX (11R). (I had already been cleared direct DUDYA and was descending out of 7000 for 5000). "Cessna 6137Q, mantain 3100 until DUDYA, cleared for the RNAV RWY 16 at Brenham". In this case, once I got to DUDYA and was established on the published approach (i.e. flying a published leg), I could descend per the approach plate.

On an interesting side note, DUDYA is an intermediate fix not an initial fix. Since I was coming directly from the north, ATC saved me some time having me start at DUDYA. Thanks Houston Approach...! You guys Rock!

[rgrazian]

Todd,

I had one other thought. I have also been given a clearance to "fly heading xxx to intercept the localizer". In this example, you can not descend once you intercept. In this example you must next be Cleared For the Approach or given a lower altitude assignment in order to descend further.

Again, you must be "Cleared for the Approach" AND "established" on a published leg in order to descend on your own.

Lastly, if you are even in question, just query ATC. The PE controllers are great and will help you out. I've learned so much flying online with these guys. They have certainly helped me become very comfortable and more confident with ATC in the real world.

[Keith Smith]

There are two styles of approach clearances. one is the "PTAC" (position, turn, altitude, clearance) which is used when you're being vectored to the final approach course. The other is where you are conducting the approach from an IAF or IF. MENLO is an IAF. He was letting you know that you were cleared for the approach upon reaching MENLO.

That means that you could follow the lateral and vertical restrictions of the approach as published on the chart from that point on.

[twharrell]

Very clearly explained, Keith. Thank you.

So, to recap..... since I was cleared for the ILS 28R approach, after crossing MENLO, I was free to start my descent, as that was implied in the controller's clearance.

These are the types of learning experiences on Pilot Edge that are just pure gold. Good stuff, guys.

Todd

[rgrazian]

Yep. After crossing MENLO (heading 331), you could descend as low as 3200 until tracking the localizer. After Localizer intercept, you could descend with the G/S or follow the step downs if you were doing the LOC approach.