Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Real World VFR, IFR and Coast to Coast discussion area

Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Postby Keith Smith » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:44 pm

Pilotworkshops is now offering RW C2C at no charge due to COVID, the link is available on the Pilot Center on our site!
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Re: Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Postby FDXDave » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:12 am

Cool. Thanks !

Dave
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Re: Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Postby FDXDave » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:55 am

I've been slowly watching these flights / briefs. Nicely done.
Question on Leg 4: KCAE-KMXA

Shortly after takeoff, you hear a Pilot request go around due to traffic on the runway. The controller told him that he can land with the traffic on the runway due to the fact the aircraft types permitted it, that the landing aircraft only needed 3000 feet or something like that. I found it interesting that you can actually get clearance to land on a runway where another aircraft is lined up and waiting? I would of done a go around too if I saw a plane on the runway. I know during your sponsored Oshkosh flyin, multiple aircraft can land on the same runway, green dot etc... But I thought special permits had to be obtained for that. Anyway, best hobby around where you still learn new stuff years into it : )
Dave.
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Re: Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Postby Marcus Becker » Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:04 pm

I tried to find reference to same runway separation in the AIM or other FAA document that wasn't the ATC manual and I came up empty. For now, you can have a quick read from Bold Method. If you feel like it you can follow the link to the .65 for ATC rules regarding the subject.
https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/landing-separation-requirements-tower-and-nontower/#:~:text=Same%20Runway%20Separation%3A%20One%20Arrival,and%20another%20aircraft%20may%20land.
Image
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Re: Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Postby Kevin_atc » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:03 pm

FDXDave wrote:I've been slowly watching these flights / briefs. Nicely done.
Question on Leg 4: KCAE-KMXA

Shortly after takeoff, you hear a Pilot request go around due to traffic on the runway. The controller told him that he can land with the traffic on the runway due to the fact the aircraft types permitted it, that the landing aircraft only needed 3000 feet or something like that. I found it interesting that you can actually get clearance to land on a runway where another aircraft is lined up and waiting? I would of done a go around too if I saw a plane on the runway. I know during your sponsored Oshkosh flyin, multiple aircraft can land on the same runway, green dot etc... But I thought special permits had to be obtained for that. Anyway, best hobby around where you still learn new stuff years into it : )
Dave.


The only waiver that OSH uses is CAT2 can land just 3000 ft behind CAT1 as opposed to the usual 4500ft. Other than that, OSH operates legally under normal separation standards.
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Re: Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Postby Keith Smith » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:21 pm

I found it interesting that you can actually get clearance to land on a runway where another aircraft is lined up and waiting?


That's incorrect, and not what was happening in the video. The aircraft that was on the runway was downfield by more than 3000ft. There as no aircraft in position. (EDIT: I was wrong, see reply after Kevin's)

There is an ATC regulation that specifically prevents issuance of a landing clearance if an aircraft has been given a position and hold instruction (which is articulated with the specific phraseology, "line up and wait.") In those cases, arriving aircraft will typically be issued an instruction to "continue." Any pilot who hears "continue" should generally assume it's being issued because of traffic in position.
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Re: Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Postby Kevin_atc » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:42 pm

Keith Smith wrote:
I found it interesting that you can actually get clearance to land on a runway where another aircraft is lined up and waiting?


That's incorrect, and not what was happening in the video. The aircraft that was on the runway was downfield by more than 3000ft. There as no aircraft in position.

There is an ATC regulation that specifically prevents issuance of a landing clearance if an aircraft has been given a position and hold instruction (which is articulated with the specific phraseology, "line up and wait.") In those cases, arriving aircraft will typically be issued an instruction to "continue." Any pilot who hears "continue" should generally assume it's being issued because of traffic in position.


Just to eliminate possible confusion- there ARE provisions which allow a landing clearance to be issued with an aircraft in position for that same runway, but it’s only when there are safety logic systems in operation. Some facilities also have additional restrictions based on their staffing configuration as to when they’re allowed to do it. Generally only the large airports have the safety logic system therefore you’re unlikely to see an aircraft in position with an aircraft cleared to land at a small airport.
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Re: Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Postby Keith Smith » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:24 pm

I flubbed that one, my mistake. I was so used to simulating fields which didn't have the safety logic system, I forgot the provision actually existed to allow for them, sorry Dave! I also thought Dave was referring to the video, rather than the regs :)
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Re: Coast to Coast now available for FREE!

Postby FDXDave » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:10 pm

Keith Smith wrote:I flubbed that one, my mistake. I was so used to simulating fields which didn't have the safety logic system, I forgot the provision actually existed to allow for them, sorry Dave! I also thought Dave was referring to the video, rather than the regs :)


Nope, you were correct. i did misunderstood the radio chatter. No one had referenced the line up and wait. That was just what i assumed had been going on. Makes way more sense to me now. And the meaning of continuing.
Thank you all for the explanations. Very interesting. Even though i misinterpreted something on the radio ( not my first time lol ) i still learned something from it and that's what matters.

Thanks,
Dave.
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