LAX Bravo Transitions

[Mark Hargrove]

I'm studying/practicing for V3 and a few questions have popped up for me regarding the Bravo transitions:

Say we've departed KSNA to the NW heading towards LAX and (as in the transcript) once clear of the KSNA Charlie we climb and maintain 3000' heading towards the Vincent Thomas bridge with the intention of flying the Coastal Route transition. I'm a bit confused about where to make the call to SoCal approach. In the transcript they're only 5 miles SE of LAX. After contacting SoCal, they're assigned 6,500'. In the C-172SP that I fly, I cannot reach 6500' by the time I reach the VOR if I make the call at 5 miles SE. Can I make the call to SoCal approach earlier, perhaps over the Vincent Thomas bridge? Asked another way, at what point should I be at 6500' if that is my assigned altitude?

Now assume we've exited the Coastal transition on the north and descended back down to 3000' in the south end of the San Fernando Valley around Sepulveda Pass. We decide to fly the Mini-Route back to the SE. At 3000' we're well below the Bravo shelf so that's not an issue. The altitude specified for the transition is 2500'. Since this is below the top of the SMO Delta airspace, am I correct in assuming I should start the Mini-Route coordination through SMO at 5 miles or so to the North of the SMO airport, perhaps even right over the Sepulveda Pass itself (which is about 6 miles from SMO)?

On a related note, the Mini-Route transition altitude is 2500' for BOTH directions (SE and NW). How does this work in practice when aircraft are transitioning in both directions at the same time?

Finally, back when I was flying in the real world out of VNY (back in the Mesozoic era when the airspace around LAX was still called a TCA rather than Class B), there was only one VFR route that I remember which was just called the LAX "VFR corridor". It ran directly over the center of the airport and was flown at 3500' SE bound, and 2500' NW bound (if my memory from 30 years ago serves...). By convention, you kept the tower on your left as you passed over the airport whichever direction you were going. The old "VFR Corridor" resembles the "Special Flight Rules Area" transition now, except for the NW altitude (and maybe I mis-remember that). There is no mention in the new procedure of "lanes" (i.e., of keeping the tower to your left). Instead, it indicates that the SMO 132 radial should be tracked. Does the new procedure rely solely on altitude separation for opposite-direction aircraft, or does the "keep LAX tower on your left" convention still apply?

Boy, oh boy -- this is fun stuff!

-M.

[Keith Smith]

I only have a second, but very briefly....only one aircraft can be cleared for the mini-route at a time.

The SFRA relies purely on altitude separation. Look at the TAC chart very carefully (skyvector is great if you're not already using it) and you'll see that the course to be flown is identical regardless of direction of flight.

I'll post more this w/end if nobody else answers your other q's. I'm so glad to hear you're enjoying it. This is what it's all about!

[scottcame]

It's been a couple of years since my V3, so forgive me if any of this is at odds with the requirements of the exercise. But...

If I was flying KSNA to KVNY using the Coastal Route, I'd just climb as soon as SoCal lifted any altitude restriction I'd been given on the ground at KSNA, staying a mile or two offshore, climbing to 6500 and intercepting the LAX 123 radial. I would request flight following from SoCal on the ground or when the tower cut me loose, so I'd already be talking to them...and I'd probably inform the first controller of my request for the Coastal Route. If I hadn't been issued the clearance 5 miles from the Vincent Bridge, I'd make the request again, and be prepared to circle just offshore of Long Beach (or maybe over Point Fermin) in case I didn't get the clearance right away.

Returning southbound, I generally like to have a bit more terrain clearance over Sepulveda Pass than 2500' will give you. The pass elevation is 1100' but it's pretty narrow. You could cross the mountains at 3500' or even higher and still have plenty of time to cross the SMO VOR at 2500, established on the 128R. Still, I'd plan to call SMO tower over the pass, regardless of my altitude, so they have some time to negotiate the transition for me with LAX or SoCal.

I've never been denied any of these VFR transition clearances (in VATSIM or PE...never tried them in the real world!) but I still always have a plan in case I'm denied temporarily for traffic or whatever reason. Fortunately in this part of the world, there's plenty of nice scenery to look at while you practice turns... I guess with LA you also have the option of the SFRA too...

[Alex Stjepanovic]

The altitute question on the Coastal Route(And other two) comes up often. The issue is that people think that they can climb into/out of these routes at any point. They are transitions through a chunk of airspace, with specific entry, enroute and exit portions. You enter the Bravo AT the specified altitude, by receiving the clearance from the specified controller(Miniroute LA TWR, Others SOCAL), fly it AT the specified altitude and exit AT the specified altitude.....unless something horrific comes up

The descriptions on the TAC are a drawn in a bit vaguely, so look at the actual chart too: http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.93574765475 ... 114&zoom=4

You can see that Coastal/Coliseum/Hollywood Park Routes, don't start *overhead* LAX, but well north and south at the limits of the Bravo(The vertical faces of those specific shelves).

[Mark Hargrove]

Alex,

Your response makes complete sense to me. That's how I was visualizing the transition -- as narrow corridor of airspace at a fixed altitude (and believe me, I've been intently staring at the LA TAC chart for days!). What I want to make sure I'm clear about is where I need to be at 6500' for the start of the northbound transition. Based upon what you just said, I'm interpreting that to mean I should be at 6500' at the Vincent Thomas bridge, since that's basically the southernmost boundary of the Bravo sector that's 5-10 thousand feet. Just south of the bridge the Bravo sector is 8-10 thousand, so we'd still be outside of the Bravo at 6500'. What I'm struggling to balance that against is that for VFR flight from SNA, my direction of flight doesn't permit cruising at 6500 -- I'd have to be at 5500' for the westerly course I'd be flying. So if I was flying pure VFR without flight following, I'd climb to 5500 after being released from the SNA Charlie, wait until I was perhaps a few minutes south of the VT bridge, then call SoCal and ask for the transition, giving myself enough time to climb to 6500 by the time I reached the bridge.

Does that sound about right?

Sounds like it would be easier all the way around, though, to just coordinate with SoCal via flight following from the beginning of the flight.

[Keith Smith]

Mark,

You have your VFR cruising altitudes mixed up. West == even, East == odd. So, heading NW out of SNA, you climb to 6500. The bravo shelves are at 8k and 7k in that area, so you're good to go a 6500 without a clearance initially.

Then, you tell socal you'd like the Coastal Route. You should hear "cleared into the LAX Bravo airspace, proceed via the Coastal Route, maintain VFR at 6500 while in the Bravo. LAX altimeter xx.xx"

[Mark Hargrove]

You have your VFR cruising altitudes mixed up. West == even, East == odd.

Well that certainly explains why I've had so many mid-air collisions.

(I do know this. Really. Truly, I do. )

[Alex Stjepanovic]

Except for the altitudes as KS said, you have it right in terms of how to fly them.