IFR Clearance Question

[HRutila]

I'm incorrect about subpara j. applying to USAF only; thank you for the correction.

Mudhen, Chapter 3 deals specifically with terminal ATC. This is the category wherein towers exist. They have a specific provision within the terminal chapter that allows them to exclude the departure frequency if it's printed on a SID. This is the nationwide practice at airports with such SIDs. If there is a real question about this, it needs to be directed at the FAA Air Traffic Organization.

Excluding a departure frequency would not be permitted in the en-route environment, nor by clearances relayed from ATC through FSS, AIRNC, etc. because the provision to exclude the departure frequency is in the terminal chapter -- and neither of the aforementioned situations would occur there.

[Mudhen]

Hi Guys,
I need to point out that this is not a big issue with me.
I thought it was an interesting question and open to good discussion.
Personally, it doesn’t bother me if Clearance Delivery chooses not to issue the frequency. It’s disjointed, but that’s how it goes.
PilotEdge controllers do so well that a nitnoy point like this isn’t worth a debate.
The reason I hesitated responding to Peter’s last post is because he unwittingly touched on a problem that is endemic within the ATC system.

While you can make an argument it's not by the book, because it's common in the real world we elect to do so here.

That problem, which is widespread and becoming dangerous, is personal opinion over vetted technique.
Since I didn’t want to hijack the post, I just let it go.

[Keith Smith]

Mudhen,

This is a very interesting point and is worthy of discussion. We can choose to run PE in one of two ways:
1) we can run it exactly as the book says
2) we can run it largely by what the book says, but replicate common real world variances that people ARE going to run into when they fly in the wild

An example of this would be the "climb unrestricted" phraseology which is common used in Las Vegas TRACON for jets on the RNAV SIDS. There is no need for controllers to say "climb unrestricted" but many of them do so all the same for "clarity." This term is easily understood by pilots, and on the surface, seems like a harmless change. But, it has the undesirable side effect of perpetuating the myth that if you DON'T hear 'unrestricted', then 'climb and maintain' still requires you to comply with restrictions (which is patently false.) For THAT reason (since it does create ambiguity), I prefer that it not be used on the network by our controllers, even though they might hear it in the real world.

Ignoring for a moment whether this case of departure freqs is or isn't by the book, it does not create ambiguity or build bad pilot habits, so I have no issue with it. As an aside, I happen to agree with PG that it is 'by the book' to omit the departure freq when it is shown on plate, and also feel it's common sense.

Yes, the CRAFT format has been around for a long time, and those are all important pieces of information, but that's not to say that every item needs to be issued over the radio by the controller. Just as altitude assignments are now being summarized with "climb via SID," there's really no logical reason to issue the departure frequency if it is as published on the SID, a document which the pilot must have access to when briefing the procedure to begin with.

[bbuckley]

there's really no logical reason to issue the departure frequency if it is as published on the SID, a document which the pilot must have access to when briefing the procedure to begin with.

I was satisfied with zengei and PG's original answer (but loved the ensuing discussion), and I see the logic in decluttering the radio comm, but I wonder why this logic doesn't extend to things like skipping the freq for aircraft on an IFR instrument approach and just say "contact tower". Pilots must have the approach plate and the tower freq is always published.

[Keith Smith]

That can be done as well, although if the facility name for the tower isn't the same name as the facility you're talking to, you have to say the name of the tower. For example if you're with SBA approach, they could say "contact tower" or "contact tower 119.70." However, if you're talking to Socal during an approach to SMO, then the bare minimum they could say is "contact Santa Monica Tower."

Most controllers aren't in the habit of skipping the frequency, I'm not sure why.

[bbuckley]

That all makes perfect sense to me. Thanks. I guess the freq just kinda trips off the tongue. "Contact Melbourne Tower 118.2..."

[stevekirks]

Jumping on about phraseology and procedures:

If I'm departing on a SID like the BOACH6 out of KLAS, after the handoff from tower to departure (usually coming up on and before BESSY), I'm sometimes given a "climb and maintain FL190". I hear that as "continue to follow the departure lateral navigation, but skip the rest of restrictions on altitude". One instruction cancels only that category of instructions or restrictions from the SID. I would still navigate from waypoint to waypoint on the SID and meet the speed restriction at BESSY. That's another weird part about climb unrestricted--in Las Vegas TRACON, I'm guessing that pilots that are familiar with the area know that "unrestricted" means "skip the speeds and the altitude restrictions".

As a PE user, I like that it's real world in the sense that every controller has a different style and convention, just like what I hear on LiveATC. Also, I sometimes can't believe that the service only costs me only $179 a year--thanks everyone for the hard work and attention to detail.

[Kyle.Sanders]

50¢ a day... Pretty sweet deal

[Keith Smith]

Steve,

"climb and maintain" removes the altitude restrictions but not the published speeds, as you know.

"delete speed restrictions" does exactly that.

"climb unrestricted" means....well....your guess is as good as mine, since it doesn't exist in the pilot controller glossary, the AIM, or the FAA order on controlling. My guess is that it removes the alts, and the speeds.

[Anthony Santanastaso]

"climb unrestricted" means....well....your guess is as good as mine, since it doesn't exist in the pilot controller glossary, the AIM, or the FAA order on controlling. My guess is that it removes the alts, and the speeds.

Just to add some more info to the discussion, I found this document which alludes to the phrase "unrestricted climb" in reference to a Q/A having to do with "climb and maintain."

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea ... ia_faq.pdf

9. Q. What if I depart on a climb via clearance and later given a clearance to “Climb and Maintain” an altitude; should I comply with any published altitude restrictions?

A. NO. Unlike a “Climb Via” clearance, when cleared to “Climb and Maintain,” you are expected to vacate your current altitude and commence an unrestricted climb to comply with the clearance. For aircraft already climbing via a SID, published altitude restrictions are deleted unless re- issued by ATC. Speed restrictions remain in effect unless the controller explicitly cancels or amends the speed restrictions.

Perhaps this gives a clue as to how facilities derived the phrase "climb unrestricted;" maybe they used it in an effort to give clarification to the "climb and maintain" phrase and used wording that was in a similar Q/A type document that was given to them by their trainers/FAA.

Based upon this evidence, I would say that "climb unrestricted" only has to do with altitude, not speeds.