ATC Procedures - Ongoing General Questions

[Mark Hargrove]

As some of you may already know, FeelThere just released the TRACON version of their ATC simulation suite, the follow-up to TOWER from a couple of years ago. For those of us who like that sort of thing, the TRACON sim is pretty engrossing. The speech recognition tech built into Windows 7 works quite well with the simulation and despite a few squirrely bits with getting the sim running, I've been enjoying the challenge of trying to do what the controllers here on PE seem to do so effortlessly.

The game/sim (I say that way because it's somewhere between the two things) models three TRACON facilities in the initial release -- Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and Miami. I'm starting with Los Angeles because, after all, it's in the ZLA airspace that we've all come to know and love through PE.

Even starting with just managing departures and at the lowest level, the sim is hard. Non-ATC types will spend at least an hour just sorting out the display, the controls/interface and even the object of what you're trying to do. After that settles down, it gets hard in a different way -- even at the lowest level, you're getting a new departure handoff about every 2 minutes or (I've not actually timed it, but it seems really freakin' fast).

After trying several strategies to manage the traffic flow out of LAX, I'm really curious about the what the real ATC procedures are for handling departing traffic out of that airport.

Keith would you and the other controllers mind answering procedure questions here in this forum?

Assuming you don't mind , I'll ask the first few:

The sim assumes that all departures out of LAX are flying a SID (which is probably a mostly-reasonable assumption). For the particular starting place I'm using (midnight), there are a whole bunch of sequential departures heading south and east, flying the HOLTZ NINE, OSHNN FOUR, and SAN DIEGO SIX departures. Some of these departures call for radar vectors and the departing aircraft will just fly west until you tell them to go elsewhere. I've been giving these guys a 'PROCEED DIRECT PEVEE, CLIMB AND MAINTAIN 13000, RESUME THE DEPARTURE' instruction which imparts some degree of order -- but what's the right way to handle radar vectors? Do you vector aircraft to the nearest fix on the DP?

-M.

[Mark Hargrove]

I've got the beginnings of an answer about this already -- I found the laartcc.org website and the SOP's for the LAX TRACON. That's helping quite a bit (and also making it clear where FeelThere has simplified things for their game). I'm amused to discover that the shortcut to PEVEE I've been giving to the HOLTZ and OSHNN departures is actually part of the SOP!

One thing I'm still not completely clear about: is the real-world objective to climb traffic above the TRACON as quickly as feasible and hand them off to LA Center at around 10,000', or do they motor them along between 10,000' and 13,000' (for south and east departures) until they reach the TRACON sector boundary and then hand them off to LA Center to climb higher?

-M.

[Ryan Geckler]

Once you don't need to talk with the departure, ship them (handoff).

[Keith Smith]

Turbojets should be vectored to avoid the Palo Verde peninsula by a few miles for noise abatement.

Loop Sids are a good opportunity to establish spacing as needed, and needs some judgment as to when to turn them back toward lax to cross it at or above 10k.

Keep in mind, the docs on laartcc.org are VATSIM-specific.

We are going to do a tracon tour next Friday night on PE, announcement coming soon. That would be a good opportunity to talk about this in real time.

[Mark Hargrove]

Wow! Really looking forward to the tour!

Very broadly speaking, it looks like arrivals into LAX (west/normal landing configuration) can be lumped into three buckets:

• Arrivals from the west and the north, which funnel down to BAYST and then SMO on a 70 degree track, set up on sort of a pseudo-downwind pattern for the 24L/R complex
• Arrivals from the south, which funnel through SLI and then need to be vectored onto approach for the 25L/R complex
• Arrivals from the east, which funnel onto a 250 degree track into the airport when they are 50 miles or so east of LAX, and could go to either the 24 L/R or 25 L/R complex

Would the controllers agree or disagree with this characterization?

-M.

[Keith Smith]

Yep, those are the 3 main arrival flows. Don't forget the kimmo arrivals, though.

[Mark Hargrove]

I'm not where I can see AirNav right now, but KIMMO TWO funnels down from the north to DARTS intersection, setting up a sort-of right base entry to the 24 L/R pair at LAX? (or for Rwy 21 at SMO?)

I've already come to know and love DARTS within the Tracon! 2012 game because of the VOR RWY 21 approach for SMO.

...which brings up another question:

The VNY-->DARTS leg isn't flyable as part of the SMO VOR 21 approach, but is it available for vectoring an airplane onto the KSMO VOR 21? I.e., can I vector a plane off of the SMO FERNANDO 5 arrival from FIM to VNY to DARTS, turn them onto SMO R-212 radial and clear them for the VOR approach -- or do I have to take them out to ELMOO to start the approach?

-M.

[Keith Smith]

Yes, that's how the KIMMO arrivals are vectored, they're sequenced with SADDE arrivals for the north complex (24L/R).

If you're vectoring someone to final, you can do anything you like in terms of where you take them (minimum vectoring altitudes and sector boundaries permitting, of course). You simply have to make sure they join no closer than a couple of miles from the final approach fix. If you're vectoring someone to final, the IAF ceases to matter, because you're not having them fly the full approach from a feeder or IAF.

And be careful, it's not the SMO 212 radial. it's the SMO 032 radial, the inbound course for which is 212. That kind of phraseology mixup is what will kill someone in a hold, potentially

[Mark Hargrove]

See, things are a little different in the Tracon! game. The airplanes actually go backwards down the final approach fix, so you have to invert everything.

(Thanks for the reminder about the radial vs. the heading, I honestly did know that. I just got all excited about getting to ask my question.)

What truly is a PITA in the simulation is that you can't clear an airplane for an approach if it is on the runway heading. Yeah, go back and read that sentence again. It won't accept the clearance if it has been vectored onto the final approach course. The manual says the airplane must be on a heading with 30 degrees of the final approach course (which I think is the real-world guideline as well?), but says nothing about keeping the airplane OFF the heading. Nobody could get ILS approaches to work because most of the arrivals are coming from the east, via the RIIVR2 for example, and the airplanes are on the final approach course from roughly 50 miles out all the way to the airport. You actually have to vector the planes OFF the runway heading, fly them parallel to the ILS course centerline until they're at 15-20 miles out, then turn them back towards the localizer and issue the clearance.

ATC: "Delta 214, cleared ILS runway 24 right approach"
Delta 214: "Los Angeles approach, Delta 214, unable"
ATC: "OK, I'll bite: what the hell is the problem?"
Delta 214: "You know we can't track the localizer if we're on it."
ATC: "Ah, sorry, what the heck was I thinking?"
ATC: Delta 214, turn right 20 degrees and fly out to the side a ways, then turn back towards the runway, intercept the localizer, cleared ILS runway 24 right approach"
Delta 214: "Now THAT we can do!"
ATC: <face palm>

[Keith Smith]

Wow, that's awful (but kinda funny). It's very common, real world, to have someone join the localizer and THEN clear them for the approach after the fact.