PilotEdge Forums

Anyone else struggling with SIDs/STARs using /A (non-GPS)?

I've been studying for the I-5, and it's just so many navigation changes so fast that I'm overwhelmed. I can also honestly state I still get confused by reading some of the SID plates, just so much information it's overwhelming. Any tricks?

I'm tempted to just hold of even trying it until the IFR workshops.

Thoughts?

Brett

Fly a slower plane, use two nav radios, plan ahead. SIDs are nothing more than joining a series of radials The VNY9 SID is a bit more work than most, granted because of the number of turns in relatively close proximity. Fly a slower plane (yes I know I said it twice).

Let us know which SIDs are giving you grief, we can help step you through them.

Glendale One I have figured out, as it's pretty straight forward. The only part I'm not clear on is the "Thence..." part which I'm assuming just means, do what the controller tells you to do after.

VNY9 is another story entirely. I'm honestly scared to even try it in a 172 as there are so many changes and the plate so confusing that I'm completely frightened of it. lol

Also, just not knowing what I'm going to get when calling ATC. So if I'm reading this plate right, if they give me runway 8.. I do the first part which is take off, turn right to 210, will the controller then tell me "perform the daggett transition" or "fillmore transition", etc? How do I know when to start those, and will I always get what I ask for when filing, or do I have to prepare for all 6 listed in the plate just in case?

This plate is giving me an ulcer.

Brett

Also, just not knowing what I'm going to get when calling ATC.

Today I about to gave up but bravely continued where no man went before ..lol,lol

I filed TEC route ( SANN4) for Turboprop MZB293R SLI148R SLI at 8000'.

What I got was PEBLE4 SID with DAG transition ...oops, I was not prepared for that at all.

I though TEC routes are always available but not.

I asked Controller to read the clearance again and I read it back .

Then I fiddled with the radio for I do not know how many minutes to get the procedure right and I think I did.

There is nothing like PE experience.

Cheers, AJ

Hey AJ, it was actually PEBLE4 with SLI transition. You flew it flawlessly.

Yes, Eugene, SLI, SLI, I just wrote it from my head.

DAG was for different flight. I did not know I flew it flawlessly, I only knew I did not do any MAJOR mistakes.

Thank you, keeps me motivated to learn. Cheers, AJ

AJ, now compare the PEBLE4 SID vs the original TEC route...not just the names....the course over the ground. See any STRIKING similarities?

Brett, we'll be covering SIDs very thoroughly during the workshop when the time comes. In the mean time, we can help you here without a problem. I'm off to go see my first movie in 5 years (Django Unchained), will try to remember to reply here tomorrow. If I don't, PM me, or ping this thread.

5 years?! That's pretty messed up, Keith. Django was a lot of fun. I just hope you remember what a Tarantino film is like....

Brett,

The pace of the VOR changes for the Van Nuys 9 is almost stupid. I bet very few pilots fly that SID with a /A equipped airplane in real-life. Even with /G and a FMS it's not a complete piece of cake because it starts with a vector, and you never know exactly which of the 97 waypoints they're going to send you 'direct' towards -- so you'd better be familiar with how to select an arbitrary 'leg' of your route. A fancy FMS will let you specify that you want to go direct to a named waypoint and then resume the procedure from there -- but that takes an FMS/FMC in an RJ or better as far as I know.

The "thence" part of a lot of DP's just means "then proceed with the next part of the departure". According to the strict DP (of VNY9), after departure you're supposed to be vectored to the VNY VOR, and "thence" (just read as "then") fly the transition that you filed. For the I5, you should have file the DAG transition, so your "thence" is just the route specified by that transition (IPIHO/TWINE/LANGE/SLAPP/BOGET/PMD/ETHER/DAG). The controller will not tell you to do that -- it's expected that you know that's what you're supposed to do because that's how the DP is written.

I've flown that DP about three times, and have never once been actually vectored to VNY -- even on the rating flight I got a small shortcut direct to TWINE after my turn to 210 (from a Rwy 15 departure, I think).

There is nothing that says you can't practice this departure with. FSX (or XPlane, I guess; don't know for sure) outside of PE. I've done this for a bunch of complicated things -- I save the flight at a good point (like on the runway for a DP, or at 5 miles or so from the beginning of an approach in the air), then fly the procedure a bunch of times until all of the pieces make sense. If I don't do something right, I just reload the flight and start again. For the "radar vectors" part, I just pretend that I've been given vectors a minute or two after departure, then turn and go.

The VNY9 is tricky but for planning purposes if you're flying /A, the controller will most likely vector you direct VNY or up towards the northeast pointed segment and then direct PMD once above terrain. So you don't have to worry about being sent to some arbitrary fix between the major VORs on the course (that's reserved for the folks with GPS and FMCs).

For practice, you could always depart VFR out of Burbank or Van Nuys and request flight following from Socal to practice the procedure. As long as you let the controller know that you intend to practice following the radials while maintaining VFR, it could be a means of working on your VOR tracking skills. (and you avoid being yelled at )