V-3 practice flight ... ran into issues

[ChristophPreinfalk]

Did my first V-3 practice flight last night. Didn't go too well. Was a good experience, though!! The controllers (yes, plural) were very friendly and patient with me, good thing was that there was only about 1 other pilot connected at that time, so at least I don't think I didn't spoil the experience too much for others. I did bust the B and then I left the B without permission. I blame it on the Coastal Route write up on the LAX TAC : It says "Enter the LAX Class B northbound abeam the Vincent Thomas Bridge established on the Los Angeles 123 radial." Sounds contradictory to me (bleeding novice that I am). "abeam the VTB" and "established on the LAX 123 radial" are mutually exclusive, in my book. So for my practice flight, I figured I choose either to be abeam the VTB or established on the LAX 123 radial after I got Coastal Route clearance from ATC. Seems like a no-brainer to me, it's much easier to get on the 123 radial WAY ahead, right? Well, seems like I made the wrong choice. The controller made me aware of it. He gave me instructions that involved going south (which seems to be a nice metaphor with regards to the situation that I got myself into ), something about Hawthorne, and a few other things that overwhelmed me. I asked him to repeat and then he simplified it by sending me south, climbing to 6500 outside the Bravo. I happily obliged, minus the "outside the Bravo" bit, because I was still under the 5000 shelf when I reached 6500. That's when I busted the B. Good times. The controller then gave me a heads up that I busted the B and explained to me patiently, so I dive bombed down to 4500. The controller asked me to keep flying south until i'm outside the 5000 shelf, then climb to 6500, then expect to be cleared for the coastal route.

I climbed up to 6500, turned back north, reported that I'm level 6500 and got my clearance. So far so good. Also, the controller explained to me that I'm supposed to enter the coastal route heading north and I think he said something about "along the coast", so I figured I'll fly along the coast. Keep in mind that at this point I'm not thinking straight anymore. So the controller asked me what equipment I'm using. I told him "Beechcraft Baron slant Golf" and he said "no, what navigation are you using" and I said "I was going to follow the 123 radial, but now I'm just heading north along the coast" and he told me that I shouldn't do that, but at this point I should just go direct LAX and then outbound on the 323. Oh boy. I followed his directions and was on the outbound 323 a few minutes later. Piece of cake. After what I thought was enough distance between me and LAX, and the controller said "maintain VFR", I kinda misunderstood again and figured I'm done. Let's get out of the Bravo. Dive. He: "say your altitude" Me: "Uhm ... descending through 3900 ..." He: "you're not supposed to leave the bravo until .... etc. etc." Oh boy!! Well, he was nice and told me to resume own navigation and stay out of the Bravo. Phew. That went well. Not. Then I cruised along, realizing that I'm close to busting the VNY Charlie, but turned west a few degrees, no issues.

Next thing was that the controller asked me where I'm planning on going. I thought that was an excellent question. Remember, I was going to do a V-3 practice flight and was planning on returning via the Mini Route. No way I'm going to do that now. And of course I was too frazzled to figure out a place to land and end my flight properly. So I said "Uhm ... I was planning on doing the Mini Route, but I had too much excitement for today. I'll have to log off. Baron Three Alpha Bravo." He said "roger" and I quit. This was my first PE flight that I didn't finish!

Oh, and I kept mentioning "Coastal Route North West bound". Embarrassing! And I think that confused the heck out of the controller, because initially he cleared my for 8500 feet, which I happily complied with and then he corrected himself and gave me a 6500 clearance. Ha!

I think at one point one of the controllers said that I'm expected to know the Coastal Route before I fly it. I gotta say that he made a good point. However, I did study the write up (read it about 30 times), and I did the flight offline so I get familiar with the distances and know about how fast or slow paced everything will be. But, I misunderstood the entry point and the exit point.

To make sure, I'll GPS the Vincent Thomas Bridge (I know it's lame to use GPS on a VFR flight, but who's judging!) and make sure I'm at 6500 feet before I get there. It's under the 8000ft shelf, so I'm good to go. And then, on the outbound 323, I'll just wait until he releases me from the leash.

And, I won't go for the Mini Route, I'll just land at Van Nuys.

Which brings me to my next question: How do you pronounce Nuys in Van Nuys? Like "Nise"? Or "Nees"? Or "Noose"? I'm no native English sprecher.

[Keith Smith]

The V-3 definitely rattles a lot of people's cages. So much chaos for two little radials.

Try to think of it as an underground pipeline. You get in at one end...and you get out at the other. You do not drill a hole in the pipeline at the 1/3 mark and burrow into it from that point

Also, altitude changes in the Bravo are a problem if the controller is expecting you to be at a specific altitude. That's because he/she is responsible for providing separation of all targets in the Bravo. If you're on a published route with a published altitude associated with it, your permission to enter the Bravo, and your separation from other traffic (ie, your life) is only guaranteed if you hold up your end of the contract.

The 123 radial runs past the VST Bridge, so there is no contradiction between the instruction to be established on the radial by the time you are abeam the bridge. Again, using the pipeline analogy, the pipeline starts abeam the bridge.....the instruction is saying to be lined up with the pipeline prior to entering the pipeline. You can do that from as far away as you like...3 miles, 5 miles, 10 miles, your choice.

Pronounced: "NYES" (rhymes with "ties")

If you have any other questions, fire away! I promise to try to do a V-3 video next. The past 3 times I've tried, the weather was awful.

[arb65912]

Hi Chris, I have read carefully your post and Keith's reply ( love the pipeline drilling comparison.. ).
I am not even close to be at a comfortable level flying through class Bravo but I flew few times COASTAL ROUTE.
The first time it was a nightmare, I do not remember details but I messed up few times, I was SO embarrassed....
Do not feel bad though, it was the first time.
You know what to do next?
You already analyzed what went wrong, you have Keith's remarks ( I love his humor, sometimes I do not get it because of my Polish background but most of the times he cracks me up when he jokes)

Go ahead and fly COASTAL ROUTE again, I guarantee you, you will feel MUCH better and it will be no mistakes or maybe an accidental one.

MINI ROUTE, same thing, there are quick frequency changes , going North, I believe it is HHR Tower and immediately LAX Tower , then SMO tower but it might not be exactly like that, last time I was going from SoCal APP straight to LAX Tower and then SoCal APP again and then my destination VNY Tower.

Anyway, keeping my fingers crossed for you, go for it, PE is the best tool you can have.

Will be waiting for your further comments after you fly COASTAL ROUTE again.

Cheers, AJ

[Keith Smith]

Good advice, AJ. The mini-route is a lot of work, it requires many quick freq changes. The Coastal Route is much more relaxed.

Try flying it both ways to build some confidence.

[ChristophPreinfalk]

Thanks for the advice, AJ!

Keith,

Thanks for your reply, and thanks for the analogy!

Sooooo ... things don't quite add up to me, then. Yesterday I was established on the LAX 123 radial at about 20 miles DME. I requested Bravo clearance way before I hit landfall (so to speak), way before the bridge, got clearance for 6500 feet, climbed to 6500 feet whilst being on the 123 radial the whole time, and then the controller told me I'm not entering the Coastal Route correctly, that I have to go along the coast or something like that (it was quite confusing). Therefore I do not understand what I did wrong yesterday, to be honest!! And I swear that I was on the LAX123R, because I've been doing VOR navigation on X-Plane for a long time before I started on PE.

Based on what you said, please let me know if this is a good approach to entering the Coastal Route (coming from SNA):

- Right after leaving the SNA Charlie, climb to 6500ft while headed to LAX123R
- Get on the LAX123R quickly, while still under the Bravo 7000 shelf
- Call for Coastal Route Clearance, while on the LAX123R at 6500 (I know I'm not violating the Bravo 7000 shelf, and I won't violate the 8000 shelf that comes right after on the 123 Radial)
- As long as I get clearance before I reach the 5000 shelf (which is after the VT Bridge), just keep going!
- Once I hit the LAX VOR, go on the 323 Radial until I'm out of the Bravo and I'm getting "resume own navigation"

Maybe I misremember what I did yesterday, maybe I was starting to climb while I was under the 5000 shelf and that was my mistake.

One more thing: In the V-3 radio transcript, the pilot requests clearance 5 miles out of LAX, gets clearance 4 miles out of LAX, then climbs to 6500. At least that's how I read it. Sounds like that's not the way to do it, because that would mean digging a separate sewage pipe into the Bravo!!!

[arb65912]

I requested Bravo clearance way before I hit landfall (so to speak), way before the bridge, got clearance for 6500 feet, climbed to 6500 feet whilst being on the 123 radial the whole time, and then the controller told me I'm not entering the Coastal Route correctly, that I have to go along the coast or something like that (it was quite confusing). Therefore I do not understand what I did wrong yesterday, to be honest!! And I swear that I was on the LAX123R, because I've been doing VOR navigation on X-Plane for a long time before I started on PE.

Now I do not understand that either. If you were at 6500' 20DME from LAX, you were under the Bravo floor.

Is there any proper way of entering COASTAL ROUTE?

I flew it as shown on Skyvector ( link below) few times and never had problems.

Cheers, AJ

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.82198007961 ... 3473823598

- Right after leaving the SNA Charlie, climb to 6500ft while headed to LAX123R
- Get on the LAX123R quickly, while still under the Bravo 7000 shelf
- Call for Coastal Route Clearance, while on the LAX123R at 6500 (I know I'm not violating the Bravo 7000 shelf, and I won't violate the 8000 shelf that comes right after on the 123 Radial)
- As long as I get clearance before I reach the 5000 shelf (which is after the VT Bridge), just keep going!
- Once I hit the LAX VOR, go on the 323 Radial until I'm out of the Bravo and I'm getting "resume own navigation"

I would do exactly the same, can not wait to see the replies.

[Keith Smith]

Christoph,

Any chance you can locate the audio recording for your flight?

[Pieces]

http://www.pilotedge.net/recordings/hou ... _17510.mp3 - About three minutes, after made my stupid request about the 2305 restricted areas. ... I was even looking at the sectional.

[Keith Smith]

Got it...thanks Reece.

The transcript is wrong, I'll fix it. It was not designed to be followed word for word, it's supposed to be indicative of the general flow of communications that might take place. That said, it CERTAINLY doesn't help that the distance from LAX is so inaccurate and leads to this kind of confusion.

The controller did the right thing, he informed you that you were too far north to join the Coastal Route and directed you south to rejoin. The 'shoreline' he's referencing is NOT the one running north/south passed LAX. He's referring to the shoreline just south of the bridge. He was trying to point you back to the south and have you climb to the altitude to start the route ONCE CLEAR of the Bravo. In other words...start over and try to enter the pipe from the entrance.

I'll fix the transcript right now, sorry for the confusion.

[Keith Smith]

Ok, transcript updated. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. It needed some serious surgery! No wonder people call us so late on the Coastal Route sometimes!