IFR Clearance Question

[bbuckley]

Early this afternoon I flew KLAS to KLGB (Phenom 522PM). When I got my IFR clearance from Las Vegas Clearance the controller didn't give a departure freq so after my read back I asked if he had a departure freq and he said "It's on the SID". In all my RW and PE flying I've never had a clearance deviate from CRAFT. Is this a standard practice if the freq is published on the SID? It almost always is I think. No big deal just curious.
Bruce

[zengei]

I recall Peter mentioning on a live stream that they reconciled some PE frequencies with the charts for exactly this purpose. If no F is given (lulz, made myself laugh) get it from the chart.

[Peter Grey]

zengei has it right.

If it's on the chart and it's the correct one we don't have to give it in the clearance. We recently changed several frequencies we use so that they match the chart and therefore don't have to be issued by us.

[bbuckley]

Got it, thanks to both. Does this only apply on a SID? DEP is also usually published in the A/FD (and many other places)
Happy New Year!

[Mudhen]

I think the frequency has to be issued:
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

4−2−1. CLEARANCE ITEMS
Issue the following clearance items, as appropriate, in
the order listed below:
a. Aircraft identification.
b. Clearance limit.
1. When the clearance limit is an airport, the
word “airport” must follow the airport name.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT.
2. When the clearance limit is a NAVAID, and
the NAVAID type is known, the type of NAVAID
must follow the NAVAID name.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED TO (NAVAID name and type).
3. When the clearance limit is an intersection or
waypoint, and the type is known, the type must follow
the intersection or waypoint name.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED TO (intersection or waypoint name and type).
c. Standard Instrument Departure (SID).
d. Route of flight including PDR/PDAR/PAR
when applied.
e. Altitude data in the order flown.
f. Mach number, if applicable.
g. USAF. When issuing a clearance to an airborne
aircraft containing an altitude assignment, do not
include more than one of the following in the same
transmission:
1. Frequency change.
2. Transponder change.
3. Heading.
4. Altimeter setting.
5. Traffic information containing an altitude.
h. Holding instructions.
i. Any special information.
j. Frequency and beacon code information.

[HRutila]

Yes, the frequency has to be issued -- not necessarily over the radio.

Yes, departures must have the wind, altimeter, and runways in use -- but it can be done through the ATIS.

There's a pattern here. If something "essential, but routine," as the FAA puts it, can be safely removed from ATC control frequencies, they will do it when practical.

P.S. The bolded subparagraph above deals with USAF operations, which do not include civilian operators.

[Peter Grey]

From 3-9-3 of the .65:

Inform departing IFR, SVFR, VFR aircraft receiving
radar service, and TRSA VFR aircraft of the
following:
a. Before takeoff.
1. Issue the appropriate departure control
frequency and beacon code. The departure control
frequency may be omitted if a SID has been or will be
assigned and the departure control frequency is
published on the SID.

That's what allows us to not issue the departure frequency as 4-2-1 would seem to indicate.

For clarity the bolded section of mudhen's post does apply to civilian aircraft. Only paragraph g doesn't apply to civilian aircraft.

It's common practice in the real world for this exception to be used.

[stevekirks]

It's common practice in the real world for this exception to be used.

It's this reason I'll be happy to renew my PE yearly sub yet again. If in doubt, what would your local controller do? the same thing. Thanks Peter!

[Mudhen]

That's what allows us to not issue the departure frequency as 4-2-1 would seem to indicate.

I respectfully disagree, here’s why:
Chapter 3 does not pertain to “issuing” the IFR clearance.
Chapter 3 is concerned with Airport Traffic Control; the movement and operation of aircraft/vehicles/equipment/etc. on the airport surface/runway.
Further, under 3-9-3/a, the sub-heading is, “Before takeoff;” The airplane is at the end of the runway and ready to go. The flight crew has already received the IFR clearance
so the frequency would not be required, (unless a change has taken place.)

Chapter 4, IFR, (4-2-1) specifically refers to those items that shall be included with an IFR clearance and the precise order in which they are delivered.
The word “issue,” as in, “Issue the following…” infers the action is mandatory. The order is standardized for efficiency and to eliminate confusion. Thus, most pilots copy the clearance using C-R-A-F-T. (A technique that has been used for decades.)
One will notice the paragraph also reads, “as appropriate.”
“As Appropriate” are those items which are not normally issued in a clearance, or those items/conditions that may have changed without the flight crews notice, (Unexpected holding, speed restrictions, WX, etc.)
But, “as appropriate” is not consent or permission for the controller to eliminate any items from the list; only those that do not apply.
One can read the list, a thru j, and readily see those items that are normally contained in an IFR clearance, and those that are not.
However, item “j” is very interesting, (and subtle.) It is the primary reason I think the frequency is always included.
Take a moment and read the alphabetically listed items, (except for “g:” exclusive to USAF.)
a. Aircraft Identification.
b. Clearance Limit.
c. Standard Instrument Departure.
d. Route of flight including PDR/PDAR/PAR when applied.
e. Altitude data in the order flown.
f. Mach number, if applicable.
g. excluded
h. Holding instructions.
I. Any special information
j. Frequency and beacon code information.
One will notice that all the items contained in a-I, are singular; that is, only one item per letter.
But “j” is the only one containing two items; frequency and beacon code.
Since a beacon code is always issued, and the beacon code is listed concurrently with the frequency, (by use of the word “and”,) I conclude the frequency is always issued.

[Peter Grey]

I can see your argument, I don't personally agree with it, however before we get down into the minutia of it I want to point out something else that is relevant. In the real world they (sometimes) do not issue the departure frequency when it's listed on the chart.

Some examples from liveatc.net:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kdfw/ ... -1730Z.mp3 (listen at 3:50)

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kjfk/ ... -1630Z.mp3 (listen at 2:15)

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/klas/ ... -1800Z.mp3 (listen at 11:15)

Each of the examples above is from a different airport just to show that it's not airport specific.

While you can make an argument it's not by the book, because it's common in the real world we elect to do so here. If you really drill down into the book and compare it to real world controllers you'll find inconsistencies, we take the view of if it's done in the real world and doesn't cause confusion we will emulate the "inconsistencies" here. I don't personally think that's what's happening here but if we accept it's common practice in the real world then we should be able to agree that it's acceptable practice on PE.