ASR / PAR approaches and non-gyro vectors.

[schwed]

Is there a mechanism to do ASR and PAR approaches on the network? I recognize these are very time consuming for a controller. But perhaps they can be allowed in certain days / times, limited number per hour and to costomers with certain level of proficiency? I.e. A certain I rating and above? Or perhaps under the virtual coaching structure?

It's not easy to practice these in RW. I know for a fact my instructors are not very proficient in them since they rarely if ever practice then.

Thoughts?

[awreaper]

I would like to see this as well. I wouldn't think that ASR approaches would be hard to do with the tech that PE is currently using now. PAR maybe not so much.

[HRutila]

As far as I am aware, there are no radar approach procedures available anywhere in the Pilotedge coverage area. Many of these procedures have been decommissioned to save money.

In terms of doing this in real life, all you need is an airport with published radar approach procedures. Simply call the facility ahead of time and ask if any controllers would be interested/available in doing a real surveillance approach or two. At facilities where these are still available, there is a quarterly currency requirement in place. The controllers either accomplish this via a simulator, or they get a pilot who wants to do them for real. Occasionally ATC will reach out to see if anyone wants to do a practice ASR approach.

Surveillance approaches are probably the easiest approaches on the planet. If you have a working attitude indicator or turn coordinator, and an altimeter, that's all you need to successfully complete an approach like this. ATC is doing nearly all of the work for you. If you can hold a heading and altitude, you can fly a surveillance approach. It's just a matter of having the willingness to call the facility and tell them you want to practice it, which is something many instructors are unfortunately unwilling to do.

[NameCoin]

It's just a matter of having the willingness to call the facility and tell them you want to practice it, which is something many instructors are unfortunately unwilling to do.

It's not an unreasonable attitude in congested areas, at least. It would be a waste of time to request it when the controller barely has enough time to issue you instructions for practise approaches.

[schwed]

I wasn't aware there weren't any surveillance approaches in the ZLA area. I live in the northeast (NY / PHL Tracon area) and as far as I know, there aren't any around here. How about non-gyro vectors? Is this something we could do on the network? I'm just gonna ask one of the controllers later today when I log in.

I tried to do a simple route and non-presicion approach last night after failing both AHRS. I had a backup attitude indicator and a MC. Weather at KCRQ was just MVFR. The workload was almost unmanageable and I had to rely on my GPS. In a RW scenario like this (AHRS down and no GPS) I would declare an emergency without a doubt. I'm a low time pilot (just shy of 200 hours) and after last night's experience I'm confident this is almost non-survivable for me. I don't see this as a possibility on the plane I fly (2 AHRS, 2 GPS and 2 ADC as well as a portable GPS unit for my iPAD). But I guess thinking it could never happen is why I should practice it! (that and I need to show proficiency for my upcoming instrument check ride).

Anyone ever had a RW experience of having to fly IMC with just a MC?

Anyone know any surveillance approaches near NY / PHL?

[Keith Smith]

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1605/SW3RAD.PDF shows the radar procedures available in Socal. They're limited to the military bases. As such, PE controllers aren't trained on the use of ASR and PAR (the latter requires a specific display which we don't have configured in any case).

I did a stream recently flying from SMX to SBA with a vacuum failure about 1/3 of the way along, however, I still had GPS guidance which I used judiciously for the purpose of tracking my heading. Without any kind of a real-time heading reference, I would almost certainly solicit ATC's help in the real world.

However, given the slew of indepdent modern avionics (ie, panel mounted GPS plus an iPad), the likelihood of having a vacuum failure (or AHRS failure in your case), plus panel mounted GPS failure, plus an iPad failure seems so low as to make this an academic question.

Peter will be adding his thoughts here, too.

[HRutila]

It's just a matter of having the willingness to call the facility and tell them you want to practice it, which is something many instructors are unfortunately unwilling to do.

It's not an unreasonable attitude in congested areas, at least. It would be a waste of time to request it when the controller barely has enough time to issue you instructions for practise approaches.

By call, I literally mean call on the phone. You certainly wouldn't want to call on the radio to request this unless it's a slow day.

[Peter Grey]

As mentioned above we are unable to support ASR/PAR approaches, we don't train our controllers in these as they are military procedures and as a general rule aren't used in the civilian world. I've yet to hear a case of a pilot actually flying one of these approaches outside of practice.

We can provide no-gyro vectors.

[schwed]

Keith, I agree this is all an "academic exercise" Having 2 AHRS and 2 GPS systems down at the same time would require a catastrophic systems failure. At that point I'd be more concerned for finding a field to do a forced landing than to shoot a surveillance approach.

I really wasn't expecting a ASR/PAR approach could have been simulated on PE but I figured I'd ask. Pretty sure half of the guys that fly in my FBO would have been lining up in my house to watch it

I did speak to one of the PHLA approach controllers on my flight back from Cape May earlier today. He called KDAA down in DC and told me they'd be willing to do the approach with me if I fly down there. I'll call them later this week and try to arrange something. It's just for the fun of it really.

A more likely scenario would be to require no-gyro vectors. Glad to know this can be simulated on PE> I'll be requesting those later tonight for sure. I absolutely need more practice with those partial panel non-presicion approaches.

[Ryan B]

As mentioned above we are unable to support ASR/PAR approaches, we don't train our controllers in these as they are military procedures and as a general rule aren't used in the civilian world. I've yet to hear a case of a pilot actually flying one of these approaches outside of practice.

We can provide no-gyro vectors.

I've provided ASR approaches to a few airliners over my career in the FAA, not as practice. Basically the ASR is an ok alternative to localizer out of service etc. In my case, I worked a NWA DC9 into DLH via ASR because he had no other way to shoot an approach. Maybe it was poor planning on the airline's part to allow the aircraft to come up to DLH with the ILS notamed out.... but in the past, at least way up here in DLH, we'd provide ASR's to aircraft who were unable GPS approaches (or couldn't use our short runway VOR approach). But yes, they are mainly for practice and military acft. ASR's are actually really fun to do and easier with fast moving aircraft, like F16's (I've done a few turn ons at 350+ kts!)