Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Nelson L.
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Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by Nelson L. »

Just had a quick question about the minima numbers on approach plates (it's been a while...). I've attached a picture below. For things like the S-27 (just pretend we're in a category A or B aircraft), I know the 680 is the minimum descent altitude for a straight in, but I forget what the 50 means? Thinking back to the workshops, I thought it had something to do with autopilots and auto-land, but it's all a bit fuzzy for me (it's also a non-precision approach so auto-land wouldn't make sense?). I'm pretty sure the little numbers to the right of the "normal" minima (so for the S-27 the 665 [700-1]) are for military aircraft, but then again, it's been a while... Could someone confirm?

ChartCBY.png
ChartCBY.png (47.07 KiB) Viewed 8228 times
Also, for this specific approach (attached below - LOC27 into San Diego), assuming you're /A and coming in from MZB and for some reason you want to fly the full approach, would you be allowed to go off the 084R from MZB to intercept the 017R inbound to PGY? There's no MEA on the radial, so unless there's an airway there that isn't depicted on the chart, I'm assuming you would need vectors as /A? But then if you were told to expect this approach and lost comms, how would you fly it legally (aside from just going to the MSA and winging it [see what I did there ;) ] from there)? I'm pretty sure this may have actually been used as an example in the workshops, but honestly there's hours of video - no chance I'd be able to find it.
Loc27ques.png
Loc27ques.png (246.17 KiB) Viewed 8228 times
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RyanK
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Re: Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by RyanK »

The "/50" is 5000 feet RVR, or runway visual range, which is visibility in feet measured at the end of the runway. It equates to 1sm flight visibility. 665 is the height of the MDA above the touchdown zone, and the numbers in parentheses are for military use.

This exact lost comm scenario has come up a couple times here before. The MZB 084 radial is not flyable, so you're left without a great way of getting to an IAF without GPS. In a true lost comm situation, if you're set on doing this approach, I don't think it's unreasonable to fly the airway from MZB to RYAHH at its MEA of 7000.
NameCoin
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Re: Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by NameCoin »

RyanK wrote: This exact lost comm scenario has come up a couple times here before. The MZB 084 radial is not flyable, so you're left without a great way of getting to an IAF without GPS. In a true lost comm situation, if you're set on doing this approach, I don't think it's unreasonable to fly the airway from MZB to RYAHH at its MEA of 7000.
In an emergency, it may not be desirable for one reason or another to try to climb all the way up to 7000. Another option to consider is using the Minimum Safe Altitude (MSA) depicted on the bottom left of the map view (or above the airport diagram). Flying at the MSA guarantees at least 1000 feet of obstacle clearance. Even outside of a traditional emergency, the MSA is a good tool to keep in the back pocket in case a pilot is ever extremely disoriented, lost, etc...
RyanK
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Re: Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by RyanK »

Good point, you could certainly use the MSA in an emergency.
Nelson L.
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Re: Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by Nelson L. »

Muchas gracias señores!
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HRutila
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Re: Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by HRutila »

I'll do you one better: Pull up the ILS Runway 9. The teardrop entry at SARGS from the missed approach procedure on the LOC 27 is the perfect setup to intercept the localizer for the ILS Runway 9. From there you can circle back to Runway 27 or just make the approach straight-in.

This has probably been brought up before in the other thread, but I don't know where to look.
Harold Rutila
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jx_
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Re: Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by jx_ »

I think everyone is overlooking one small but important detail. Your clearance would be MZB DIRECT, so after MZB you should go direct to KSAN (and hold if you are early), then from there you can pick up any approach you like.

So I would fly the MZB140* to KSAN, the LOC27 outbound at 5000 to intercept the PGY014, then PT at RYAHH on the northwest side.


*In this particular case I would cheat a bit by taking V317 to the LOC, but don't tell the FAA I said that!
Keith Smith
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Re: Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by Keith Smith »

Joe, that is an age old debate, and it's not so simple. If it's IMC, what is gained by going to the airport first, then proceeding to an IAF? Also, if you're /A or /U, how are you supposed to navigate from MZB to SAN before proceeding to an IAF?

Ideally, your cleared route would end at an IAF or feeder, but the advent of TEC routes pretty much precludes this option because the routes serve so many destination airports.

The lost comms rules do say that if your cleared route overflies a fix from which an approach can be started (eg, feeder or IAF), then you can start the approach there without going to the airport first. However, it's less clear if the last fix is not on an approach. In cases where going to the authority buys you nothing, or worse, isn't possible to do under /U or /A, I'd just get myself to an IAF under emergency authority. They do say that the lost comms rules can't cover every conceivable situation and that the pilot should essentially use their best judgement when the rules run out of legs.
jx_
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Re: Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by jx_ »

Keith,

yes, it does get complicated, but only because of the age old debates. It's pretty clear in the regs. There is always doubt and confusion when it comes to complex procedures, which is what leads to the debates, but the alphabet police won't excuse us for not knowing or being unsure. If something goes wrong you become liable when you break the "technically" correct rules and I would rather understand which side of that line I am on at all times.


To answer your questions,

- "what is gained by going to the airport first, then proceeding to an IAF?"

It is the legally correct thing to do and all approaches are easily accessible from there.

- "if you're /A or /U, how are you supposed to navigate from MZB to SAN before proceeding to an IAF?"

it is the pilot's responsibility to plan that last direct leg regardless of equipment, in this case the MZB133003 at or above the MIA (i would cheat and take V317 to LOC, but that option's not always available). The pilot is responsible for getting to/from the ATS if he is not on a published procedure or ATC procedure to/from the runway. This is via an 'unpublished route segment' with minimum altitudes defined in §91.185(c)(2)(ii) (and §91.121(c) and §91.177).

- "However, it's less clear if the last fix is not on an approach."

In actuality it is clear according to the regs. You have to remain on your cleared route if in IMC conditions until beginning an approach from your clearance limit. You can only start an approach before reaching the clearance limit if you were advised by ATC to expect an approach, and you encounter a fix that begins that approach before you arrive at your clearance limit. That's it. If passing an IAF without an expect clearance, you must continue to the clearance limit.


Yes emergency authority and common sense can override, but you have to justify these things in the post incident interview and I would still want to know what's correct.

§91.185 IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.

(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.

(c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if paragraph (b) of this section cannot be complied with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the following:
  • (1) Route.
    • (i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;

      (ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;

      (iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or

      (iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan.
    (2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
    • (i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
    • (ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in §91.121(c)) for IFR operations;


    (3) Leave clearance limit.
    • (i) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
    • (ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
Ryan B
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Re: Approach Plates - Minima #'s

Post by Ryan B »

So at MZB, if IMC, commence the loc 27

Done.

A lot of text up there! Anyway that's my two cents as a rw controller from what I hope the pilot would do.
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