Cat 10 miniroute question

Cat 10 miniroute question

Postby Skudrunner » Thu May 24, 2018 9:38 pm

Cat 10/ Miniroute question.
Following the instructions for the Cat 10, I planned the first leg North via the Miniroute. Cleared out of KTOA, I requested an early frequency change to have time to contact Hawthorne, request transition through that airspace and be handed off to LAX before reaching the class Bravo airspace. It all went fine until I got instructions from Hawthorne to get established on the Miniroute (I was already on it at 2500”) and remain with Hawthorne tower. I waited and watched the border of the class Bravo loom closer so I call Hawthorne tower again to ask if he still wanted me to stay with him. He repeated his last instruction to “establish on the Miniroute and remain this frequency and do not enter the class Brave until cleared into it”. My understanding is that the clearance into the Bravo airspace comes from LAX, but I was stuck with Hawthorne tower. So…. What to do, I was already buying time by going slow. Entering a holding pattern was possible except the Cat 10 instructions clearly state:
“Normally once established on a VFR transition you will not be able to “leave” the transition early, you will need to fly the entire transition before resuming your planned flight.”
Or, I could bust the class Bravo perimeter, either way I was pretty sure the wrath of ATC would soon follow, so rather that endure that little slice of heaven, I left the PE server and am still pondering what could have been a proper solution. The PE server was pretty busy then and the chances of getting a frequency change completed and clearance from LAX before getting to the Bravo seemed bleak. I watched a couple of the Cat 10 flights on YouTube and they were cleared by Hawthorne to contact LAX with enough time to stay clear of the Bravo airspace. What should I have done?
Thank you for your advice.
Skudrunner
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 11:08 am

Re: Cat 10 miniroute question

Postby Dean33 » Fri May 25, 2018 6:35 am

I'm sure someone else will give a more detailed answer but I have many happy memories of orbiting south of the Bravo border near Hawthorne!
A slower aircraft is often an advantage in cases like this.
Cheers.
Dean33

UK P3DV4 Simmer
Pilotedge - I11, CAT11, A-Z (ZLA),

Gigabyte P57v7 CF2 17.3" laptop. Kaby Lake i7 7700HQ CPU (averaging 3.4mhz). NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070 8mb (laptop version), 16 GB of DDR4-2400 RAM, SSD - MTS800 256GB M.2, 1TB HDD 7200.
Dean33
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:23 am

Re: Cat 10 miniroute question

Postby RogerW » Fri May 25, 2018 7:55 am

Ahh... such fond memories. :lol:
I chose a time that wasn't very busy, monitoring the receiver and online map.
The first half from Torrence went pretty smooth with nothing that wasn't expected. I then took a RL break for a while, telling the controller after landing at Van Nuys.
The second half was a little busier and I did do a holding pattern on the coastal route just north of the Bravo and contacted the controller. I informed him I was holding on the coastal route and he cleared me through at that time. (Hint: I think sometimes they are testing you to see what you would do like flaunting candy in front of someone on a diet.)
Bottom line, you never bust the airspace. You WILL get the wrath and fail.

Good luck! Most of all have fun and learn from your mistakes. It's only virtual. The FAA don't care.

Roger
Roger W.
Home: Valkaria, Fla (X59)(but lost in SoCal)
PE Rating: CAT-11
Experience: Real 7 hrs, Virtual 2500+ hrs
FSX
Aircraft: A2A Cessna 182 Skylane
Tail Number: N7365W
Facebook blog: https://www.facebook.com/Fly-by-Night-Aerospace-719016678295028/
RogerW
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:47 pm
Location: Valkaria, Fla (X59) USA

Re: Cat 10 miniroute question

Postby Skudrunner » Fri May 25, 2018 1:09 pm

I found Keith Smith's response to a similar question. He suggests climbing out of Hawthorne's airspace and then holding while waiting to be cleared into the Bravo, that makes since to me but what about the instructions I already received from Hawthorne tower about joining the miniroute? Maybe request leaving the HHR airspace and climb out of Hawthorne's airspace? As an alternative, could I climb out Torrance, overfly the Hawthorne airspace and contact ATC for clearance into the Bravo? But that would not be in keeping with the requirements for the Cat-10.
I have to admit, PE controllers are a bit scary to me.
Skudrunner
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 11:08 am

Re: Cat 10 miniroute question

Postby deansalman » Sun May 27, 2018 9:54 am

I have trouble with this one too but only when I do the Cat 10 Rating for some reason. I have done the mini route a number of times but when I try the Cat 10 something always goes wrong, lol. I need to try again, maybe today. Then do the Cat 11 which will be easier since I have done class B to class B many times. I wonder what will change when KSMO closes in 2028. Maybe it will be easier because there will be no more Santa Monica airspace.
Dean Salman
N117SB Diamond Twin Star
deansalman
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:29 am

Re: Cat 10 miniroute question

Postby Skudrunner » Sun May 27, 2018 12:04 pm

Thanks, I tried it a couple of more times without success but now I think that how busy the PE controller is has a lot to do with it. In their defense, the PE controllers sound really busy, wearing so many hats at the same time.
I used to fly the old "VFR cooridor" often (real world) both north & southbound and it was so easy without having talk to ATC, although I did have some interesting experiences. Once, I was by myself in a C-172 (high wing) eastbound watching an aircoupe (low wing) climb out of KSMO into the cooridor. We were communicating on the cooridor freq and it sounded like we were in the same space. The two guys in the aircoupe were looking all around without success. I said, "look up", both heads snipped up, they leveled off and we never got close. Come to think of it, maybe that experiance supports the need for positive control over LAX but it was nice being able to come and go without worrying about busting the Bravo airspace or having to be cleared through the surrounding controlled airspaces.
Skudrunner
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 11:08 am

Re: Cat 10 miniroute question

Postby jx_ » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:15 pm

No need to be scared of the controllers. They don't bite. Just remember aviation is governed by the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) first, then ATC instructions second, and FAR states a VFR pilot without a bravo clearance has the sole responsibility to remain outside the airspace unless an emergency exists.

First, a controller will NOT fail you for turning to avoid Bravo, but they will fail you for clipping it. Anytime you fly into a trap like this, have an escape plan and be ready to execute it without ATC permission. Never fly yourself into a corner without room to maneuver and no plan (like these guys did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_New_ ... lane_crash). They turned to avoid Bravo at the last minute...and killed themselves. Have an 'avoid Bravo' plan with a clear abort point that takes turn radius, performance, bank angle, and cross wind into account.

The other thing to remember is "join the route" is not a clearance. ATC will only give VFR aircraft restrictions to help them get where they need to go. "Join the route" is a restriction to get you into position for the next thing. If you change your mind about wanting the mini-route, or decide to wait ten minutes, you can simply say "cancel our request, we'll be departing to the south" to which Hawthorne may reply with a restriction for that if needed, but ATC won't deny you the change of destination and force you to remain on the mini route unless safety has been compromised (or you're inside bravo, at which point you already have a CLEARANCE.) Once you have a VFR clearance, you have agreed with ATC that you will comply with the given instructions as a condition of the procedure. And yes, FAR supersedes ATC clearance. If ATC clears you via miniroute, and there's a silly cloud sitting on the route at 2500, you must deviate from the clearance and maintain VFR. ATC cannot fault you for this either. Simply advise them of what you're going to do at the moment you know you're about to do it and they will amend restrictions to accommodate your need.

Your options are to:

1) ask HHR what they would like you to do with enough time to hold the conversation and then turn to avoid the bravo
2) hold somewhere VFR on your own and advise (again, controllers will not fail you for avoiding bravo!)
3) leave HHR airspace as Keith suggested


and always remember...

...there is no such thing as a precision VFR instruction, there is always wiggle room to maneuver until receiving a specific clearance for a procedure.
...FAR always supersedes ATC.
jx_
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:15 am

Re: Cat 10 miniroute question

Postby Keith Smith » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:48 am

I plan on altering the current CAT-10 because the mini-route doesn't scale well on PE. It requires too many precisely-timed radio calls in a very short period of time. It basically requires the controller to give the aircraft undivided attention as it transitions 3 pieces of airspace.
Keith Smith
 
Posts: 9194
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:38 pm
Location: Pompton Plains, NJ

Re: Cat 10 miniroute question

Postby RogerW » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:00 pm

as a suggestion.. maybe the SFRA northbound and then the coastal back. ??
Roger W.
Home: Valkaria, Fla (X59)(but lost in SoCal)
PE Rating: CAT-11
Experience: Real 7 hrs, Virtual 2500+ hrs
FSX
Aircraft: A2A Cessna 182 Skylane
Tail Number: N7365W
Facebook blog: https://www.facebook.com/Fly-by-Night-Aerospace-719016678295028/
RogerW
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:47 pm
Location: Valkaria, Fla (X59) USA


Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests