Departure Management Out of KLAX

[Mark Hargrove]

When LAX is in normal ops, how does ATC manage the north departure flows vs. arrival flows from the north? For example, traffic departing on the GORMAN4 DP directly crosses the "downwind" leg of a SADDE6 arrival on its way inbound from SADDE or BAYST towards SMO. The arriving traffic will be at 5000'. Do you keep departures underneath the arrivals until north of the arrival path (along the SMO 70-ish radial), then climb them to something between 6000-10000 before handing them off the SoCal sector controller over the San Fernando valley?

-M.

[Keith Smith]

Arriving traffic crosses SMO at 7k then down to 5k. GMN deps are kept at 6k (1k separation) until clear of the SADDE arrival stream, handed to the Burbank area who then climbs them and hands them off to Center.

[Mark Hargrove]

I'm playing with the Tracon! 2012 game/sim a bit, and trying to sort out how arrival flows and departure flows are kept separated. I'd decided that the north arrival/dept flows had to be roughly what I asked in my email -- thanks for nailing it down.

Now I need you to confess even more ATC secrets:

Are there specific "gates" where traffic departing to the S/SE gets handed off to Center (from the HOLTZ and OSHNN departures)? On the HOLTZ9, for example, most traffic will reach 10,000 at or before PEVEE (and certainly before HOLTZ), so I've been using that leg between them as my "gate" to hand off to the Center controller, but I was curious what/where it really was.

Similarly, the game uses the SEBBY7 departure instead of the LOOP6 for eastbound departures (I have no idea why, since if they'd even glanced at the DP they'd see the big note that it shouldn't be used if the LOOP will work), but anyway: after initial contact I've been giving departing aircraft a climb to 13000 on runway heading, then turning them direct SLI at about 5 DME from LAX. That seems to keep them well separated from the HOLTZ and OSHNN departures, and gets them well up and above arrivals from the S and E. How would you do this in "real life", and what gate is used for the hand off?

Related: the game allows a hand off to occur within 3 miles from the lateral sector boundary, or within 3,000' of the top of the sector shelf. Because most turbojet aircraft climb pretty fast, I never have a problem getting them up to at least 10,000' well before the lateral boundaries of the sector (except for north departures, but we've covered that). What strikes me is that due to substantially different climb rates of various types of aircraft, the lateral point where an aircraft reaches 10,000' (the minimum hand-off altitude) isn't consistent, and it seems to me that would really irritate me if I was the Center controller. Is a "gate" a altitude AND a position?

In general, is there a resource on the web for ATC procedures around this sort of stuff?

-M.

[Kevin_atc]

I've got a pretty brief answer for these questions. First off, there's really no website that explains any of this. LAX doesn't really use gates for departures. Each SID flows well and there is no real pre-designated spot where handoffs occur. Finally, in regards to any departure heading to SLI or anywhere to the Northeast, east, or southeast, keep in mind that turbojets and turboprops may not fly overhead the Palos Verdes Peninsula below 10,000ft. Turbojets must be kept 5mi offshore while below 10k, and turboprops 3 miles offshore below 10k. With this in mind, your direct SLI off of runway heading is most likely going to be an issue unless you can get them high enough in time.

[Mark Hargrove]

What is the northernmost boundary of the PV peninsula?

Is this basically the reason that the LOOP6 DP exists? --to get eastbound flights up and keep them away from PV?

[Kevin_atc]

Sorry, I meant to specify what the peninsula actually is. It consists of the "jet out" of land near KTOA. KTOA is essentially the northern boundary. Hardly anything goes north of the peninsula, though because then they could be a conflict with LAX arrivals coming over SLI.

I have no idea if that's the reason the LOOP departure was created, but I'd say it is a valid argument. I think another reason for it is just since it's right on the coast, LAX has the ability to use all of the over-ocean space to climb aircraft whereas an airport that is further inland is restricted by populated areas, other airports, etc... In the end, it creates for less flying miles and a more point-to-point flight.