DEN - CRQ in a GA single piston

[FLIB]

Speaking as a "flatlander" pilot from the midwest, and having no experience with mountain flying I might also try the La Veta Pass, with a quick jump over Cumbres Pass (220 radial outbound from the Alamosa VOR). Once you are past that part you can pretty much straight shot it form there (or great circle it o'course). Stop for gas and grub in Winslow or Flagstaff?

Have fun and be safe whichever route you choose!

[Keith Smith]

Thanks for all the input. I test flew the key parts of the route in the sim last night (from origin till the last significant mountain crossing).

I'm happy with the diversion options on the first route. I might modify the tail end within ZLA to get me closer to a couple of airports or at least some highways. I looked at the ZLA part for the first time yesterday and saw a 110nm stretch of a whole lotta nothing Not wild about that. I at least want a highway as an option.

For the crossings, I will be on the lookout for downdrafts...here is the mitigation plan for both crossings:
- approach the ridge at a 45 deg angle. This makes the path to escape a lot closer if a significant downdraft exists. This is a mountain flying 101 technique
- make sure I actually do have an escape behind me. This is the case with both crossings. If there is a significant downdraft,I can sustain a 1000fpm 'climb' (might still be a descent depending on the motion of the airmass, of course) for a little while during the escaping turn.

The first pass is so short, I just don't think it's going to be an issue (ie, I won't have terrain near me up until the last mile or two). The second pass is a bit longer.

I can also utilize a lower altitude than 12.5+ for the 20nm path through Wolf Creek, then climb high as 14k if I want for the crossing. I have done this twice to work out my physiological limits (both were on fairly hot days at the surface, so the DA was probably higher). It's not comfortable by any stretch of the imagination, but for a few minutes (which is literally what it would be, I'm good). 14k may well be overkill, I believe I'll be ok 13 to 13.5 (and every foot counts in terms of physical comfort and performance, the higher you go, that much I do know).

Let's put it another way,if the ride is rough at 13 to 13.5, I'll likely turn around, descend and will execute another plan, probably the other pass. I don't plan on just 'barely getting' through there, either in terms of performance or ride.

I spent some time on the phone with a local guru based at a nearby airport to Wolf Creek Pass. He says that 12.5k on a nice calm morning (and most mornings are calm before 11am, apparently, unless a system is coming through) will be lovely, and is what most of the locals do. He says the pass is used on most mornings by people there heading to the Denver area. He also said the Wolf Creek AWOS is horribly inaccurate. I'm not sure how much faith to put in that. My guess is that it's locally accurate, but surrounding conditions (even up in the mountains at altitude) might be different, particularly if the AWOS is based at a point where wind is accelerated through a pass.

My goal is to only be really high when the situation dictates (treat it like an afterburner of sorts). The ENTIRE pass with 30kt head winds will take 7 minutes to fly, and I plan to be below 12.5k for some of that anyway.

Now, if there's IMC or a really rough ride, I turn around, and plan for the other pass. If that pass isn't good, then I land and wait until that pass is good. I'll be sure to have plenty of extra time for the trip.

Btw, I'm a flatlander, too, but my philosophy is to do some research to identify the risks and then have a plan for each of them. I'm applying that here and coupling that with a lot of testing up front with the sim (to observe terrain clearance, not for anything weather related of course).

PG, what's the reasoning behind the blanket avoidance of the MOA versus planning to transition with advisories? If they say it's hot all over with no altitudes that work for all parties, I'll happily go around. I'm just curious why the plan to avoid from the outset. Something tells me you have some experience with that MOA, if so, fire away! I did some reading about the Airburst MOA, lots going on there, potentially, with live fire exercises.

[Peter Grey]

PG, what's the reasoning behind the blanket avoidance of the MOA versus planning to transition with advisories? If they say it's hot all over with no altitudes that work for all parties, I'll happily go around. I'm just curious why the plan to avoid from the outset. Something tells me you have some experience with that MOA, if so, fire away! I did some reading about the Airburst MOA, lots going on there, potentially, with live fire exercises.

It started as company policy (no flight into active MOAs) which has been refined by looking at what goes on in those MOAs via our traffic system. Generally what I've seen (large alt changes, and speed changes) makes me not too interested in going in there. I'll happily go under/over however (under is normally possible in the AZ area with MOAs).

I don't actually have any experience with the Airburst MOA except what you know about it already. In the PRC area they don't give advisories inside the MOA, just a hot/cold status if you ask. If I could get advisories in the MOA and some assurance over what part of the MOA isn't being used, I'll do that, however I've never heard of that being possible in the west coast.

Live fire isn't suppose to happen in a MOA (that qualifies as a "hazard to non-participating aircraft" which requires a restricted designation), I'd bet that part actually happens in the R airspace right next to it.

[Ryan B]

How is the radar coverage out there? IE near the mountains, how bout the RCO's and flight watch etc? Are you planning flight following?

[Peter Grey]

non existent at the altitudes we are talking about (except right around DEN). I've had Denver center lose radar contact with me at 17000'.

[Ryan B]

non existent at the altitudes we are talking about (except right around DEN). I've had Denver center loose radar contact with me at 17000'.

ick... that's a downside to this operation I guess.

[Marcus Becker]

I had a freind make the exact same trip about a year ago (KAPA-KCRQ). I'll see if I can dig up his flight plan.
EDIT:
I sent him an email and this is his reply.
"If the aircraft turbocharged or has a relatively high service ceiling, and if he is doing a lot of flying in the rockies, it may make sense to invest in a portable oxygen bottle. They aren't that expensive (couple hundred bucks). I use it flying out west even in our Cherokee with a 13,236' service ceiling. It'll fly at 13k and 14k.

How I got there was: KAPA-KTEX-KPGA-KSEZ-KCRQ. It was definitely a longer route, but I did that to hit a bunch of cool airports.

From KAPA-KTEX I was given some denver radial, and a blue mesa radial. They had me at 17,000. Obviously that's not going to work with no oxygen, and you'd probably need a turbocharged plane. The 182T is non-turbo, and it barely got up that high.

If he's IFR, my suggestion is this routing:
APA-LAR-SLC-VGT-CRQ (You could add some stops along the way). I think the highest you'd have to go would be 12,000 feet. Obviously you'd have to take a look at the MEA's, but there is an airway that crosses there that has a 10,000' MEA for most of it. You could probably do that route VFR and get away with doing it a little lower, but I would stick to MEA's even VFR. I'm not sure what his experience is, but the mountains are obviously pretty unforgiving and so i'd be really careful of the weather conditions and altitudes you use crossing them. In marginal conditions the MEA's aren't even close to adequate and there have been accidents. To really stay safe in windy conditions, I think i've read some recommendations of crossing at twice the height of the terrain, which would be like FL280.

The other way to do it is to go way around them to the south, but I think that's even farther than going across to Salt Lake City. If he is interested, I have a VFR route written down that goes straight through the rockies basically from kremling area and follows the colorado river all the way west through eagle area, glenwood springs, etc, and comes out by grand junction. I have never flown it."

So, I was wrong assuming he was VFR. Oh well, I thought I would at least update my post.

[arb65912]

Keith, can you post your final route on Skyvector? It is sure very exciting and of course not without risks. I will be keeping my fingers crossed and waiting for the input when you are done. Cheers and blue skies. AJ