Crosswind landings – running out of rudder Carenado's Mooney

[mcqueen]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forums (first post). Just wanted to quickly introduce myself. I've been learning a lot on PilotEdge since early this year and having a lot of fun. It's been awesome to learn so much in such a nice, professional community. I don't have my pilots license, but it's something I'm considering. Anyways, I'm a beginner and I had a question related to crosswind landings after a really bad landing last night at KSNA 19R.

I fly the Carenado Mooney M20J quite a bit. I was doing a visual approach on 19R last night with some good crosswinds at something like 270@12G18 (real weather). On final, I performed a slip with the upwind wing down into the wind and using the rudder to stay centered on the runway. I managed to land right on the center line of the runway and pushed the ailerons towards the wind, but I immediately couldn't keep centered on the line going down the runway even though I pushed the ailerons into the wind all the way. The rudder no longer seemed to have an affect and I weathervaned into the wind hard and went off the runway. Oops!

I'm a bit of a beginner when it comes to crosswind landings. I understand I was probably pushing the limit with the winds, but as I've read about people who fly Mooney's in real life, I read that people are able to manage safe and successful 15-20 knot crosswind landings. Maybe they're full of crap though?

Out of curiosity, I did some practice approaches lowering the crosswind down to 11 knots, and I still couldn't land without weathervaning hard and running out of rudder. Is there something I can work on in my technique and approach? Or am I just hitting the limit on crosswind landings at more than 10 knots?

[Steven Winslow]

I find in most X-Plane aircraft that a little toe brake is needed to keep the plane on straight in a crosswind landing situation. I have all the Carenado aircraft and a lot of other payware aircraft and way too many freeware planes to even count and I find I'm using rudder and toe brakes whenever I taxi in the wind. I think there are things you can do in Plane Maker to set the rudder effectiveness, but I'm not a tech guy. Search through the Carenado support forum at the org. You might find some answers there:

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showforum=106

[Peter Grey]

I can't speak to the airplane or simulator quality.

What I can speak to is the maximum crosswind that an aircraft must be able to handle.

Per Part 23 an aircraft must be able to handle a crosswind of at least 20$ of Vso. For a M20J the Vso is around 58kts, so the aircraft must be able to handle an 11kt crosswind. Conversely the maximum demonstrated crosswind for the M20J is... 11kts.

So you may actually be at the limit.

[julio.elizalde]

In my experience on FSX, Carenado isn't particularly attentive to the true flight characteristics of an aircraft. I can't speak specifically about this simulation or X-plane.

You should always be aware of your aircraft's maximum allowable crosswind component. This can be found in the pilot operating handbook (POH). For example, the POH for the C172R doesn't allow for you to operate with a crosswind greater than 15KT. Looking around on forums, I saw most M20s are between 11-13kt maximum demonstrated crosswind component. In this case you'd be at 6.2 which is well within limits.

I've been flying with pretty extreme crosswinds the past 10 days and I feel your pain. You may want to consider using less flaps on your approach. Perhaps 1 setting less and +10kt on your approach speed, depending on what the POH says. This can help quite a bit with stability as your wheels touch the runway. Also, I find the most critical thing is to be sure your nose is aligned with the centerline before allowing the nose gear to drop. Also it's very instructive to practice flaps up landings to get even better control of the aircraft.

However, it might just be the simulation.

[mcqueen]

I find in most X-Plane aircraft that a little toe brake is needed to keep the plane on straight in a crosswind landing situation. I have all the Carenado aircraft and a lot of other payware aircraft and way too many freeware planes to even count and I find I'm using rudder and toe brakes whenever I taxi in the wind. I think there are things you can do in Plane Maker to set the rudder effectiveness, but I'm not a tech guy. Search through the Carenado support forum at the org. You might find some answers there:

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showforum=106

I tried a crosswind landing last night at around 11kt into KSBD braking shortly after the nosewheel hit the ground and that seemed to help keep the plane aligned with the runway.

Out of curiosity, because I've never flown an aircraft in real life ( ) I have a joystick with the trigger set up as the standard brake. Is this considered the toe brake? Or do toe brakes in an aircraft apply differentially to the left and right wheels?

[mcqueen]

I can't speak to the airplane or simulator quality.

What I can speak to is the maximum crosswind that an aircraft must be able to handle.

Per Part 23 an aircraft must be able to handle a crosswind of at least 20$ of Vso. For a M20J the Vso is around 58kts, so the aircraft must be able to handle an 11kt crosswind. Conversely the maximum demonstrated crosswind for the M20J is... 11kts.

So you may actually be at the limit.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the information. I imagine I was probably pressing the limit beyond the capabilities of the aircraft.

[mcqueen]

In my experience on FSX, Carenado isn't particularly attentive to the true flight characteristics of an aircraft. I can't speak specifically about this simulation or X-plane.

You should always be aware of your aircraft's maximum allowable crosswind component. This can be found in the pilot operating handbook (POH). For example, the POH for the C172R doesn't allow for you to operate with a crosswind greater than 15KT. Looking around on forums, I saw most M20s are between 11-13kt maximum demonstrated crosswind component. In this case you'd be at 6.2 which is well within limits.

I've been flying with pretty extreme crosswinds the past 10 days and I feel your pain. You may want to consider using less flaps on your approach. Perhaps 1 setting less and +10kt on your approach speed, depending on what the POH says. This can help quite a bit with stability as your wheels touch the runway. Also, I find the most critical thing is to be sure your nose is aligned with the centerline before allowing the nose gear to drop. Also it's very instructive to practice flaps up landings to get even better control of the aircraft.

However, it might just be the simulation.

I've tried your suggestion using only a slight bit of flaps and I could notice an improvement. With a faster approach speed, should I still try to flare and touch down at a stall, or should I put the plane on the ground at say +5 or +10 knots above the stall in a crosswind situation?

Thanks everyone for the feedback! Really helpful.

[gavink42]

Out of curiosity, because I've never flown an aircraft in real life ( ) I have a joystick with the trigger set up as the standard brake. Is this considered the toe brake? Or do toe brakes in an aircraft apply differentially to the left and right wheels?

Most general aviation planes have a toe brake on each rudder pedal. They can be used to provide differential braking to help turn sharper.

On tail draggers and aircraft with a castering nose wheel (rotates left-right freely), differential braking is the only way to turn the plane at normal taxi speeds.

-Gavin

[julio.elizalde]

I've tried your suggestion using only a slight bit of flaps and I could notice an improvement. With a faster approach speed, should I still try to flare and touch down at a stall, or should I put the plane on the ground at say +5 or +10 knots above the stall in a crosswind situation?

I hold my higher approach speed until my landing is assured at 50 FT above the runway and then transition to level flight, power to idle, and hold pitch to the horizon. The wind factor will take care of your excess speed.

As for brakes, if you only have a single button set up, you would be applying brakes evenly to both toe brakes.

[Keith Smith]

Just tested in the Carenado Baron, the rudder authority just isn't there. Spoke with the fellow responsible for porting these models to X-Plane and he's aware of the issue. Unfortunately, they're tweaked the way they are so they are relatively docile (I suspect it's to match the feel of FSX, since xplane is considered to be very sensitive compared to fsx). Unfortunately, the lack of control authority means that the ability to handle a crosswind is compromised.