Real World Class B Question

[asad112]

So thought I might share an experience I have had on three occasions now flying within the DFW Terminal Area. A bit of background first. I am a 35 hour student pilot without a Class B endorsement. I won't go into full detail as to why I have not obtained the endorsement, but we can just say it is more of an economical reason.

Anyways, I have flown a route between 0F2 and F69 three times now (see the Skyvector map link below) and seem to be encountering the same issues with the Regional TRACON controllers each time. When I depart from Bowie, I climb to 3000' MSL. I then contact Fort Worth Center to pick up flight following. Soon after being radar identified, I am handed off to Regional Approach. Then without fail, I am given a "Cleared into the Class Bravo, maintain VFR at 3000 feet," To which I reply "Unable Class B, student pilot, will descend to 2000 feet when east of the Denton Class D."

Now this is where it gets kind of interesting. After I say my line, on all three occasions, the controllers repeat to me the Class B clearance, to which I respond the same way. The first two times this happened, the controllers just simply asked why I was unable to do the Class B, to which I was then forced to go into detail to explain the issue about the logbook endorsement over some of the busiest radio there is in the country. The most recent time, I felt the controller starter to badger me. She told me "It doesn't matter if you are a student pilot, if I clear you into the Class B, you can enter." To which I politely told her "unable, student pilot." After about 30 to 45 seconds of quality airtime wasted, she finally said, "Well in that case, maintain VFR at or below 2000, and fly a heading of 100 for traffic" (this was just after passing the Denton Class D). So I complied, and she had me on a 100 heading for about 8 miles it seemed. This reliably awkward exchange has made me question weather or not I want to get flight following on my next flight. The issue with that is that the KADS ATIS instructs all VFR arrivals into the airspace to contact Regional Approach.

So I just wanted to see if anyone else could share their input on this situation. Is not a huge deal, but I am genuinely curious why I seem to be inconveniencing TRACON with the route I intend to fly. I feel I may perhaps being doing something wrong, but I am not sure what it is.

Thanks!

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.12351150376 ... 3:A.K4.F69

[Peter Grey]

You are doing nothing wrong.

Controllers aren't normally going to be aware of the details of pilot certification rules. The controller manual does not address this topic at all.

Honestly my recommendation would be to simply not call approach and remain clear of the airspace on your own. Or to get the endorsement.

[NameCoin]

I'm curious what your instructor has to say about these three incidents.

[Ryan B]

Interesting story. I hardly ever wonder what endorsements/ratings pilots have when I'm working them. This definitely brings up a great point though.

I'd just get the endorsement if you plan on doing a lot of flying into this airport.

[wmburns]

+1 interesting story.

But on the other hand, doesn't the controller have a point? IE the controller was informed of your lack of a class Bravo endorsement and yet still cleared you into the Class Bravo. Why continue to refuse at that point? It's not like the controller is asking you to do something profoundly unsafe. Is it even a rule violation if cleared by the controller?

Besides, the controller is looking at the scope and is aware of the other traffic in the area. Perhaps the traffic volume just happened to be very low. Or maybe it was easier for the controller for you to maintain current heading and altitude.

Disclaiming. ZERO real world experience. All virtual. So I might be totally in left field.

[Peter Grey]

But on the other hand, doesn't the controller have a point? IE the controller was informed of your lack of a class Bravo endorsement and yet still cleared you into the Class Bravo. Why continue to refuse at that point? It's not like the controller is asking you to do something profoundly unsafe. Is it even a rule violation if cleared by the controller?

It is 100% a rule violation. You cannot violate a FAR even with ATC clearance*.

First here is the regulation regarding the endorsement requirement (Far 61.95 (a)):

(a) A student pilot may not operate an aircraft on a solo flight in Class B airspace unless:

(1) The student pilot has received both ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on that Class B airspace area, and the flight training was received in the specific Class B airspace area for which solo flight is authorized;

(2) The logbook of that student pilot has been endorsed by the authorized instructor who gave the student pilot flight training, and the endorsement is dated within the 90-day period preceding the date of the flight in that Class B airspace area; and

(3) The logbook endorsement specifies that the student pilot has received the required ground and flight training, and has been found proficient to conduct solo flight in that specific Class B airspace area.

Here is the relevant rule from the controller handbook saying that ATC can't give permission for pilots to violate regulations:

NOTE−
Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable
regulations regardless of the application of any procedure
or minima in this order.

*From the pilot side certain regs say "unless otherwise authorized by ATC....", if the reg you are looking at doesn't, ATC can't approve a violation. Generally ATC can only waive regs relating to speed limits, certain airport operations (like opposite direction patterns), and transponder requirements.

[asad112]

I'm curious what your instructor has to say about these three incidents.

He said I did the right thing. He suggested that I may just want to contact DTO tower and request for a Class D transition at 2000' over the field and then request they hand me off to the Approach controller. I really don't like the idea of entering this area without some sort of flight following. Especially when AFW, DFW, DAL and ADS are landing to the south, the amount of traffic is insane. It is not so much the 777s and A380s I have trouble with, it is all those little GA aircraft skirting around the B without flight following that I have had close encounters with before.

Interesting story. I hardly ever wonder what endorsements/ratings pilots have when I'm working them. This definitely brings up a great point though.

I'd just get the endorsement if you plan on doing a lot of flying into this airport.

Yeah, the problem with that getting the Class B clearance with an instructor aboard is hardly guaranteed. That coupled with the how lousy the weather has been lately, it just seems good flying days are few and far between, and I rather spend them accomplishing something I know I can get done. Might sound ignorant, but I don't see the value in it either. I know how to look up frequencies, I know hot to talk on the radio (thanks PE!), I know how to hold a heading and an altitude, I know how to fly direct to a VOR. I can't seem to justify throwing a couple of hundred bucks to get an endorsement that will become irrelevant in a matter of 5-10 hours (hopefully!).

[Ryan B]

At least you get to fly hehe!

My BFR lapsed about 10 years ago haha!

[Talan2000]

Asad,

It may be splitting hairs, but just because you are cleared into the Bravo, doesn't mean you have to actually enter it. You could "roger up that clearance" and then inform Regional Approach that you are descending to 2800 crossing Denton's Delta. That keeps you out of the Bravo overhead KDTO and above Denton's Delta. VFR Cruising rules only apply 3000 AGL and up and terrain is ~ 650 msl. (It's generally a good idea to stick with the standard cruising altitudes if practical - but a B shelf renders that impractical on occasion). And it eliminates a tedious conversation -- one that as you note you won't be having to make in a few hours time! (Good luck!) The easiest solution is not to get FF...

I wouldn't be worried at all about arrivals into KDFW or KDAL, but I understand your concern about VFR traffic skirting the B (like me!). It's an unfortunate consequence of creating Bravos that pilots are unintentionally channeled into narrow pieces of sky getting around them.

Actually, I just had my first RW solo flight after a 13 yr hiatus on Monday -- in the same airspace you are passing through -- from KTKI to KLUD and return. I was "hyper vigilant" by calling Denton tower and alerting them I was flying over their airspace at 2800 when I was 8 miles East (there was a lot of traffic in the vicinity as I monitored Denton tower). The controller was probably a bit surprised that I called and he just rogered and gave me the altimeter. Anyway, I never got flight following. And on the return leg passing over Denton I maintained 2800 MSL and didn't bother calling in the second time (little traffic in the pattern).

You bring up an interesting point about KADS ATIS stating to contact Regional Approach. I don't want to hijack your thread but I have some questions about that for Peter myself re: legal vs practical aspects of a Tower telling you to get FF prior to arrival...I'll ask that elsewhere.

Good luck!

[tngarner]

Ok found this an interesting read but now my question is killing me.

Why will your instructor not just do the endorsement? Couple of years ago when I was going through training I did a cross country with my instructor and ATC asked if we would climb to move us out of the way for a medivac that was inbound to a local hospital. We said we would but we where 500' from the Class B. He then cleared us into the Bravo and asked us to climb higher by 1,000".

When we got on the ground we discussed what had happened, the process, and I did the radio work so he then gave me the endorsement. Never used it again while I was a student, but had it.

If this is routine seems like you would just do it on a flight with your instructor and done. May be over simplifying.