PilotEdge Forums

This is a good topic, and would like to discuss the situation a bit more.

I am a CFII and feel a bit embarrased to ask, but feel this is a common gray area (for me) and others. And would really like to understand from a controllers perspective the correct intention.

Im going to give a similar clearance, that I encountered with a accidental loss of comms after takeoff.

Taking off 16L at KVNY


Cleared to LGB airport. Fly heading 110 expect radar vectors V186 adamm then as filed maintain 3000 expect 4000 5 minutes after departure.......

I have a couple questions that I would like comments on: 1) Is the heading assigned by clearance intended to assure terrain clearance. 2) Is it accurate to refer to that assigned heading as a "vector." 3) Lost com scenario relating to the above clearance after takeoff at about 2200 FT.


I departed under the understanding the heading assured terrain clearance and I the pilot was comforable it would not take me into a mountain. I therefore did not plan to fly the DP for 16L. At about 2200 feet I lost comms (i thought). After takeoff I had half scale deflection of V186, but the heading of 110 was diverging from V186. If I maintained assigned heading I would fly further away from v186. Thinking I had lost comms I was thinking AVEF, and turned to intercept v186. I sorted out frequency confusion after recontacted VNY tower. I simply wrote down the wrong departure frequency. Rethinking the situation, I would have taken a bit more time on heading 110 to sort out the issue, and probably never would have turned left, off the assigned heading as the frequency confusion was quickly solved. In any event, the departure controller(when finally contacted) was advised we had solved a lost comm issue and currently flying heading xxx to intercept v186. He advised I needed to stay on heading 110 due to traffic and terrain.

So the question on the lost COMM scenario is: When would you turn off heading to best maintain terrain sepearation. Would you maintain heading 110 up to the highest of the three.... "Minimum enroute altitude, Epected Altitude, assigned altitude?" Or turn a bit left to stay on v186 in the climb to "MEA."

Frank Pate wrote:Ok, so this does bring up a question. Lets make a scenario with an 800 foot overcast IFR flight using a TEC route from KSNA to KSMO.

Clearance as follows: "Fly heading 220, Radar Vectors to Seal Beach VOR then as filed. Climb and maintain 2000, expect 4000 five minutes after departure. Departure frequency 127.2 squawk 7335."

I take off, start my turn at the end of the runway, and am handed over to departure. I'm in the soup, switch the radios and nothing, the radios die. What is my next move if I am in IFR conditions.

This is my thoughts. I will climb to 2000, turn direct to seal beach, .... I'll probably be their in less than 5 minutes. Soooo.... how far out does lower than 4000 feet safely take me and what is the lost comms procedure in this scenario and what are my options especially if it is a complete electrical meltdown? Had to turn off everything because of smoke. A very unlikely scenario, but this example can be taken apart for different segments of flight.

In regards to your situation that is similar to the one I presented my understanding is: climb maintatin the hightest of these three altitudes (Minimum IFR altitude, an expected altitude, and last assigned altitude.) so in your case you have the choice between 2000, 4000, and 5000 I say 5000 due to the OROCA as publised as 4500 on the low altidue chart, changed to IFR altitude of 5000.

As for the route: IN your case they say to use "AVEF" as an acronym. Last Assigned route, the last Vector , an Expected route, and lastly your Filed route. you were last assigned (in your last assigned route) heading 220 taking you southwest away from SLI. They told you to expect RV SLI. I would fly heading 220 and climb to 5000 squakwing 7600. The next question however, is how long do you stay on 220? Or do you turn direct SLI immediately on lost comms. Obviously you cant fly heading 220 forever. THis is where Im a bit gray. It would be nice if the intial heading was taking you direct SLI, but in my case, and your case, it was not.

I would like a technical answer to my confusion but also dont want to forget common sense: your flying towards/over the pacific ocean. It might be safe to simply fly heading 220 (knowing it takes you out of the ocean) up to 5000 then turning direct SLI.

In my example I was a bit more inland. Also it helps to know local terrain (which admittedly I do not) I am a midwest pilot :0)

And one other thought: Perhaps we have to take on some risk in the lost comm scenario. In my example perhaps we have to simply make the best judgement call we can (turn to V186 immeidtaley and climb to MEA, or climb to MEA and then turn to V186) I dont understand ATC enough to know which is best for terrain. Heading 110 might be all and good for the first 10 miles but then they intended to give me a turn left to avoid a mountain and im still flying 110. Perhaps im on 110 to avoid mountain to my left, and my early turn to V186 flew me into a mountain. This I just do not know. I guess if I am answering my own question I do not have a techincally correct answer other then: know the terrain, climb to safe altitude quickly, and follow AVEF, and MEA the best you can.

I also would guess it would take one real lost comm in the above scenario to make you always insist on the DP. Their would be complete clarity there, at the expense of efficiency.