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Thank you Keith. This is very helpful. I don't see anything close to this kind of IFR routing where I live, so I'm incredibly thankful for PilotEdge and this forum. Amazing learning environment.

Keith Smith wrote:one with a significant number of deviations on the first attempt.

On my first attempt to fly this route (with deviation), I was in a BAE Jetstream 41 (JS41) which is a high performance turbo-prop. I really didn't understand at the time just how much the fast airplane increased the workload and chance for failure. Especially considering the entire flight plan was flawed from the moment started taxing. My plan was to fly VOR (/A) using GPS only as a cross check. No "children of the magenta" here.

In addition I had the added pleasure of having Keith as the controller. The funny thing is at the time I was convinced I was correct and made my belief known (2nd mistake!). After all, I had spent a great deal of time researching/planing the route and it really doesn't look that hard right?.

To say that Keith is able to deliver a verbal smack down with the fewest possible words is an under statement. The man has the skill of a surgeon. Most of the time you don't even realize you have been cut until well after it's over.

In all seriousness, this is exactly why I fly on PilotEdge. The learning opportunity is like no other. Besides, any "cuts" received on PE are purely virtual and are a small price to pay especially compared to what the results could be if done in real life.

Flattery will get you everywhere!

I recently saw a video where my singular response of "ok" to a pilot was somehow viewed as a verbal smackdown. The funny thing, though, is that he was right!

Excuse me, I'm needed back in surgery. Someone just crossed the hold short line at SNA by three quarter of an inch and I need to facilitate the passing of their family pet as a result. Nurse! 10-blade, please.

wmburns wrote:To say that Keith is able to deliver a verbal smack down with the fewest possible words is an under statement. The man has the skill of a surgeon. Most of the time you don't even realize you have been cut until well after it's over.

Would love to hear the recording of that one...

Alas, more than 3 months has passed so the recording is no more

I do remember that flight out of TOA many moons ago in his famous, Jetstream "Going Around!" JS41. He was expressing...umm....concern (bordering on dismay) regarding the routing out of TOA. "I filed the pref route and you guys give me this essay length routing?! Why not just make this the preferred route then?! GET OFF MY LAWN!!"

Or something like that.

TOA-OXR is one of the flights in the IFR Bootcamp curriculum for just this reason. The preferred routing is "SMO VNY" which is somewhat of a cruel joke. Yes, SMO VNY does appear at the end of the route you get for TOA-OXR, but there are a few local instructions thrown in there to get you to SMO. This is, of course, because with very few exceptions (LAX being one of them), TEC routes are area-specific, not airport-specific.

Thanks for the walk down memory lane, Mike!

So would it be considered excessive celebration if I posted the video of me doing this departure (heading down to SAN but the idea is the same) in the B732/A last night on a twitch stream?

It would? ok I'll leave then...

On a serious note it is a very complicated departure. The key is to 100% understand what you are going to do prior to departing TOA. If there is ANY ambiguity let ATC know so they can work it out with you.

Keith Smith wrote:
He was expressing...umm....concern (bordering on dismay) regarding the routing out of TOA. "I filed the pref route and you guys give me this essay length routing?! Why not just make this the preferred route then?! ..."

. . . there are a few local instructions thrown in there to get you to SMO. This is, of course, because with very few exceptions (LAX being one of them), TEC routes are area-specific, not airport-specific.

TEC routes are not airport specific? Really? I thought they were not only airport specific, but actually runway specific. If RWY 11 was active, I would have filed for CSTN3.
I have to say, I thought the same thing as Mike . . . Why isn't this part of the TEC route? If all "Q" class aircraft out of TOA RWY 29 are sent down to LIMBO, just make that part of that TEC route.
So a question Keith . . . Does that first leg (LIMBO V64) out of KTOA RWY29 ever change? In other words, are there other cleared paths to SMO out of KTOA when filing the TEC route SCTN2?

The TEC route from Torrance (departing rwy 29) to WHP is the same as the TEC route from Hawthorne to WHP. The local IFR departure instructions out of TOA have you join the LAX R-170 to LIMBO, then V64 to the SMO R-125. The local IFR departure instructions out of Hawthorne have you on a 210 heading with vectors to the SMO R-125.

Same TEC route...different local IFR departure instructions. This is why you can't shift more of the TOA clearance into the TEC route...because parts of it don't apply to the HHR departures. So, the COMMON part is in the TEC route...the airport-specific stuff is kept out of the TEC route.

SAN, MYF, RNM, CRQ, SEE and SDM all share the same TEC routes, too. You can bet there are local IFR departure instructions for each of them.

Check the AFD PDF: http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/05MAR2015/SW ... AR2015.pdf (this link will work for around for 2 months or so) page 67. Note the groupings of airports in the 'FROM' section. That shows you how the routes are shared among airports. Notice that it starts with "Burbank Area" and then gives the 3 area airports (BUR, WHP, VNY), and the list continues.

TOA is special because is falls under the "Coastal Area" when departing rwy 11, but falls under Socal when departing runway 29. It's on the border of two different areas, hence the routing change. This is explained on the previous page in the PDF. It's worth a very close read to better understand TEC routes. The presentation of the routes grouped by departure area will almost certainly clear up the picture.

Keith,

Thanks so much for this explanation and link! This really clears it up and makes a lot of sense.

Peter Grey wrote:On a serious note it is a very complicated departure. The key is to 100% understand what you are going to do prior to departing TOA.

Let's be brutally honest here. If ever there was an example of a PEPKAC situation (problem exists between keyboard and chair) this is it. IMO the route isn't really all that complicated once the route is correctly understood.

The other hint is that little voice inside your head that said....... Why am I flying to a fix and then making a 180 degree turn?.........

BUT.....this is one route where the GPS "cheaters" among us can't file /A but actually fly /G as there are no named fixes. Add to the mix that the route is unusual. Flying away from the destination/direction of flight.

As experience improves we have a better understanding the importance of visualization. This leads to better planning. Setting up the radios ahead of time helps to ensure that one "stays ahead" of the plane. This has gotten me thinking that I will dust off the Jet Stream 41 and fly this this pure /A, Vy climb out, as fast as the JS41 will go at this altitude (The JS41 can't go faster than 250 KIAS. No speeding tickets here). IMO in some ways this is easier in the JS41 over the BE58 as the JS41 has dual RMI needles in addition to a DUAL VOR overlay on the HSI.

To rtataryn, A route which is one of my personal demons is: KSMX BUELT2 FLW EHF KBFL

Fly using just the SID. http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1503/pdf/00379BUELT.PDF

I won't give away what trips me up but of the 20 times I have attempted this route pure /A, almost a third have resulted in a "gross navigation" error. In all cases, the error was made before calling for taxi.

Random thoughts:

• This thread has reminded me that I don't practice holds enough.
• I rarely fly VFR and should do more.
• Did anybody else notice that the route follows the dividing line between the class Bravo shelves? Is that were the fix LIMBO came from?
• Haven't heard Keith behind the scope for awhile. I'm due for some more "plastic surgery".