CTAF callouts considerations

[Pieces]

A crosswind call is helpful especially if you have to coordinate with a person on the 45 degree entry into the pattern.

Situational awareness is key. I'm not advocating never making a crosswind call because it isn't in the AIM, but a lot of times it just isn't necessary.

Same thing with your story. Using a call sign in that case probably helps. Many times it is useless information. Sounds like the other in the pattern is at fault here - he was not communicating clearly nor flying particularly well.

[chevyrules]

A crosswind call is helpful especially if you have to coordinate with a person on the 45 degree entry into the pattern.

Situational awareness is key. I'm not advocating never making a crosswind call because it isn't in the AIM, but a lot of times it just isn't necessary.

Same thing with your story. Using a call sign in that case probably helps. Many times it is useless information. Sounds like the other in the pattern is at fault here - he was not communicating clearly nor flying particularly well.

Situational awareness is key I agree and a lot of times using your callsign is useless because no one bothers to coordinate between each other because people think their radio calls are just an advisory and it's purely other people's problem to stay out of their way. The school I work at has a great safety culture and when we make radio calls in the practice area and there is another company traffic near by that could conflict with their stated maneuver, we acknowledge them by saying we have them in sight and will remain clear. That statement is a tremendous burden off my mind when already trying to teach my student. One time we were doing a hold over a waypoint and we made the radio call( included our callsign) that we were holding north of the waypoint at 4000 feet. I saw there was traffic heading toward us at the same altitude on our MFD( our planes have ADS-B In/Out). I spotted him outside and had to take the time to look at him to see what he was going to do( can we safely continue to hold or do we have to end it?) until he came on and said he would stay out of our callsigns way. That helped tremendously. While I still kept an eye on him, I could pay more attention to the student doing the hold as my mind was at ease and knew we could continue since that other plane stated he saw us and would stay out of our way.

It almost comes off as a surprise when a persons radio call actually gets acknowledged. When I was doing my night currency and entering the pattern for rwy 5, another plane( not our company) came on and said they were on the RNAV 12 approach for a low approach. I spotted him and came back on the CTAF that I had him in sight and I would maneuver behind him to make my 45 degree entry for 5( winds were favorable for 12, but the rwy lights for 12/30 were inop). He came back with surprise in his voice stating roger. But by me doing that, it made for a much safer environment because two people were entering the pattern from the same direction and we actually coordinated and didn't have to worry about if he saw me or if I saw him.

While yes stating your callsign is useless information a lot of the time because no one thinks about coordination using CTAF and only uses it as a statement of intentions, I absolutely think it is a good thing to include because now you know where a person is and if you need to get into contact with them, you can vs using vague terms like Skyhawk, etc.

[Nelson L.]

Chevy, while I definitely see the merit of all the stated methods, the first story you told was admittedly not the best example in my opinion. I think that story would have classified more in HRutila's category While I'm not going to argue about the effectiveness of the callsign, my (uneducated - please correct me if I'm wrong) view is that its easier to visualize and comprehend whats going on at an airport if you don't have to remember all the callsigns. Unless there's over two of the same aircraft type in a pattern, I think descriptions would be a bit easier on the brain - "Rancho traffic, bright pink Cessna turning base behind neon green Cessna on final", instead of "Rancho traffic, Cessna 123AB turning base behind Cessna 321ZX on final". If you do have to use your callsign, I personally would use the abbreviated version to keep the briefness, but give people something to distinguish my Cessna, from say, the other 4 in the pattern. In your example, wouldn't it have been just as easy for the person to say "Cessna in the hold"? Sure, a bit wordier, but less memorization to devote to callsigns and more to flying the plane. Then again, I'm not sure if what I just said is even remotely correct, so please tell me the "merit" of my view.

[chevyrules]

Chevy, while I definitely see the merit of all the stated methods, the first story you told was admittedly not the best example in my opinion. I think that story would have classified more in HRutila's category While I'm not going to argue about the effectiveness of the callsign, my (uneducated - please correct me if I'm wrong) view is that its easier to visualize and comprehend whats going on at an airport if you don't have to remember all the callsigns. Unless there's over two of the same aircraft type in a pattern, I think descriptions would be a bit easier on the brain - "Rancho traffic, bright pink Cessna turning base behind neon green Cessna on final", instead of "Rancho traffic, Cessna 123AB turning base behind Cessna 321ZX on final". If you do have to use your callsign, I personally would use the abbreviated version to keep the briefness, but give people something to distinguish my Cessna, from say, the other 4 in the pattern. In your example, wouldn't it have been just as easy for the person to say "Cessna in the hold"? Sure, a bit wordier, but less memorization to devote to callsigns and more to flying the plane. Then again, I'm not sure if what I just said is even remotely correct, so please tell me the "merit" of my view.

I am not saying you have to remember all the callsigns in the traffic pattern, but focus on the one you're following and maybe the one following you. Pay attention to the ones that are relevant to you and filter out the rest. And I am certainly not saying you have to say, " Skyhawk 123AB turning base behind Skyhawk 321X". But in case you needed to get in contact with him, it's certainly nice to know the callsign! I certainly see your point in using the short hand callsign( Skyhawk 7AB) because it certainly makes it easer to remember and keep track of.

As for my hold scenario, again vague comms right there. There could be another plane holding somewhere else on the same frequency. I hate when people do, " North Practice Area". Now I have to pay attention to his comms and listen to where he is. Where if I am in Summer Haven and I hear Crescent Practice Area, I know I can ignore his radio call because he isn't close to me so it isn't relevant to me. As in my earlier story, you found out what happens when you assume things. I assumed I was picking the other airport and moved on. When in actuality that guy was talking to me.

[wmburns]

On a recent FSEconomy VFR flight was navigating via the Thermal (TRM) VOR at 8,500. Per the VFR chars this would be passing through the Jacqueline Cochran Regional Airport (KTRM) Class Charlie. The VFR charts indicate the KTRM Class C extends up to 10,000'.

My flight plan was:
http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.18951306957 ... :A.K2.46CA

The charts listed the KTRM CTAF as 123.00. Since i was flying through the class C it seemed logical to make the CTAF call outs. Call outs were made.

• 10 NM out: N55VM 10 miles out. Will be passing overhead at 8,500 East to West.
• 0 NM(over head TRM): N55VM overhead at 8,500'
• 5 NM from TRM (leaving class C): N55VM leaving area to the West.

However, I was not certain the call outs were correct/reasonable. IE exactly what information the call out should contain? Or if the call outs were even needed at all under the situation.

Is there anything in the AIM covering this situation?

Is the Class Charlie at KTRM unusually high at 10,000'? Is this because of the surrounding terrain?

Thank-you.

[zengei]

On a recent FSEconomy VFR flight was navigating via the Thermal (TRM) VOR at 8,500. Per the VFR chars this would be passing through the Jacqueline Cochran Regional Airport (KTRM) Class Charlie. The VFR charts indicate the KTRM Class C extends up to 10,000'.

My flight plan was:
http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.18951306957 ... :A.K2.46CA

The charts listed the KTRM CTAF as 123.00. Since i was flying through the class C it seemed logical to make the CTAF call outs. Call outs were made.

• 10 NM out: N55VM 10 miles out. Will be passing overhead at 8,500 East to West.
• 0 NM(over head TRM): N55VM overhead at 8,500'
• 5 NM from TRM (leaving class C): N55VM leaving area to the West.

However, I was not certain the call outs were correct/reasonable. IE exactly what information the call out should contain? Or if the call outs were even needed at all under the situation.

Is there anything in the AIM covering this situation?

Is the Class Charlie at KTRM unusually high at 10,000'? Is this because of the surrounding terrain?

Thank-you.

KTRM is Class E, not Class C, notice the magenta border is dashed, not solid, and more importantly the lack of a control tower. The unfortunately placed 35/100 altitude range, denotes the altitudes of the shelf of the Palm Springs TRSA. At the altitude you were flying I don't think any radio calls on the KTRM CTAF were necessary and I believe establishing radio contact is not necessary to enter a TRSA unlike Charlie or Delta airspace, so you were in the clear on that front. But please, someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

EDIT:

Participation. Pilots operating under VFR are encouraged to contact the radar approach control and avail themselves of the TRSA Services. However, participation is voluntary on the part of the pilot. See Chapter 4, Air Traffic Control, for details and procedures.

Emphasis mine.

[Keith Smith]

wmburns, being on the CTAF for a non-towered field at 8500 AGL does not make sense.

As zengei pointed out, there is no Class C at TRM, it's a TRSA. If you'd like to review what Class C looks like, take a peek at ONT, BUR, SNA, and SBA.

The appropriate frequency to use would've been the PSP TRSA frequency and it would've been to pick up flight following, not to self announce positions.