Is partial SID allowed to file?

[arb65912]

Gentlemen, I am planning the flight from SNA to VCV.

I want to practice ARC/DME approach and my IAF is APLES.

On departure I want to fly ANAHM3 Standard Instrument Departure.

Since I need to get only to APLES , I do not need to use whole length of HEC Transition.

My question is can I file ANAHM3.APLES as route?

What altitude do I file?

Cheers, Andrzej

[Brandon Grchan]

yes you can file that.

You need to file an altitude higher than the MEA on the Departure.

[arb65912]

Thank you, Brandon. Cheers, Amdrzej

[Keith Smith]

I disagree, I don't think you file that. SIDs can be filed either with their raw code (ANAHM3.SLI) or you can file one of the transitions, using the code shown in the text for each transition. You can't file ANAHM3.APLES....but you COULD file ANAHM3.SLI APLES (or the fixes on the HEC transition to APLES).

[Brandon Grchan]

I disagree, I don't think you file that. SIDs can be filed either with their raw code (ANAHM3.SLI) or you can file one of the transitions, using the code shown in the text for each transition. You can't file ANAHM3.APLES....but you COULD file ANAHM3.SLI APLES (or the fixes on the HEC transition to APLES).

If this was not allowed it would be news to me. I know doing something like that is not standard, but I have never read any regulation suggesting that you have to exit the DP at SLI or the end of a transition.

I understand what your saying, but after searching I cant find any real guidance saying he legally couldn't file ANAHM3.APLES

[NM Doug]

I know it's a little off topic, but I wanted to say that this is a good example of how rewarding the PE community is. Everyone is navigating a complex system of possibilities, constraints, and regulations, and the different efforts and interpretations that come into play all reflect people working for quality and practicality together.

Really, how often is this the case in most environments? Not often.

So, back to the topic, my (non instrument-rated, non controller) guess is that the expectation would relate to the General Info I see on p. C1 of the Socal approach plate book:

"...when filing a STAR/DP with a transition, the first three coded characters of the STAR and the last three coded characters of the DP are replaced by the transition code. Examples: ... FREEHOLD THREE DEPARTURE, file (FREH3.RBV), FREEHOLD THREE DEPARTURE, ELWOOD CITY TRANSITION, file (FREH3.EWC)."

My read would be that if the transition is listed in the DP, it could be coded after the period, but if not, the generic form of the departure should be filed (in this case ANAHM3.SLI) followed by the desired exit point, APLES.

Thanks for the great environment, all, and I look forward to seeing the details of what's decided here.

- Doug

[arb65912]

Gentlemen, thank you for the input.

As per Keith's explanation, I assume that I could not file ANAHAM3.APLES, I still have a question..

In case I filed only ANAHM3.SLI as a raw code, how would I go to APLES?

If I filed ANAHAM3.SLI APLES , I understand that it would take care of what I wanted.

Summarizing.

1. I can only file raw code ANAHM3.SLI and whatever the fixes I want to fly to.

2 Any of the transitions depicted in text like ANAHM3.HEC, ANAHM3.LHS, ANAHM3.VTU.

On the other hand, Brandon says that there is nothing illegal with filling ANAHM3.APLES......

I wish Keith and Brandon could agree on which approach is legal, until then I still have two choices...

Cheers, Andrzej

[Alex Stjepanovic]

I would tend to side with Keith.

The issue with filing something like ANAHM3.APLES, is that there is no way for ATC to know what exactly you mean. From a certain point of view, ANAHM3.APLES would imply flying the DP itself, but not any transition. Then again, since APLES lies along the HEC transition, one could also assume that you wanted to fly the HEC transition, but only to APLES.

The DP alone technically ends at SLI, according to its name(ANAHM3.SLI), but this is at times simply put there if no specific logical termination point exists. Sometimes, and especially if a DP is not based on or named after any one fix/navaid/airport/etc, it is listed as terminating at itself. An example of one that terminates at an existing waypoint, but not any one that it really goes to, is LAXX6(LAXX6.LAX).

In this case, since SLI seems to be a random terminating point for the DP-only portion your filing of ANAHM3.APLES, it could/would more or less imply that you wanted to fly an initial heading, depending on what runway you took off from, and get vectored to APLES(After the initial headings, the DP portion states "via (transition) or (assigned route)").

There is one other issue there though. Since APLES lies along the HEC transition, one could also assume that you wanted to fly to SLI first, since in both cases(Departing 1s or 19s), that transition/DP-only portion, is listed as getting vectored to SLI initially, before the "via (transition) or (assigned route)" portion. Disregard any actual traffic flows or sector procedures, and assume that this is the route that you'd actually get.

As you can see, there are a tonne of assumptions there, and we all know what great a friend they can be to aviation

It's easier just filing some more clear or asking the controller. Perhaps CSTN13 to PDZ(Since it connects SNA and ONT) and then V442 to APLES. If it doesn't work out, the ATC will give you a better one.

That's my take on this, anyway.

[arb65912]

Thank you , Alex. I am trying to read all comment very carefully here to understand everything properly.

In the context of all that was said here, I have another question.... sorry.

What if I just filled ANAHM3.HEC and then before reaching APLES told the Controller that at APLES I want to start VOR/DME RWY 17 approach to VCV ( APLES is IAF for that approach)?

It seems like one of the reasonable choices, ATC would know that I am flying ANAHM3.HEC waypoints , I would just not fly to HEC and notify ATC that I want to end ANAHM3.HEC at APLES to start VOR/DME RWY 17 approach to VCV.

Cheers, Andrzej

[Ryan Geckler]

If you filed ANAHM3.SLI APLES, then you wouldn't be flying the DP after SLI, since we'd assume that after SLI you'd go direct APLES.

According to a couple of sources, there's two route choices:

MUSEL6.SLI POM or
SLI V21 PDZ V442 APLES

Obviously with the first one, you'll have to get vectored to APLES, but those are two possible options.