PilotEdge Forums

Over the years, many peopled have described a bittersweet feeling as a result of finishing up the I-11 rating, knowing that there are no more formal ratings for them to complete.

Clearly, people like a challenge! So, if you are a proud member of the I-11 club and would like to put together some 'flight packages' for others to try, feel free to use this forum to do it. Be as detailed as reqired to make your 'rating' as usable as possible by your potential audience. Explain what the goal of the flight is and what it is you think that makes it interesting.

We may well consider incorporating them as advanced ratings, but to be honest, once pilots are at the I-11 level, they probably don't need ATC to tell them whether they flew a procedure correctly or not. For that reason, I think this could work pretty well as an informal project where pilots post a flight package and then pilots try it out and post their experience of what it was like to fly it. Don't feel compelled to post something that's insanely difficult...it just has to be interesting and should have some sort of training benefit.

I'll start with one (although I regret that I don't have the time to post quite as much data about it as I'd like). You're flying from KHHR to KCRQ via the TEC route for a piston aircraft, which is "LIMBO V64 V363 DANAH V23 OCN." The goal of this flight is to show that GPS isn't always your friend, and sometimes, you're going to have to fall back to other ways of doing things. What makes it interesting is that this not a random, esoteric, "well what if..." case. This is the clearance you are GOING TO GET if you fly between those fields in a piston aircraft. Whether or not ATC will give you a shortcut in real life once you're enroute, I'm not sure...but even so, a pilot should be fully prepared to fly the cleared the route, end to end...and this is what the TEC route is. Give it a shot, let me know what you experienced and how you handled the navigational challenge (hint: it's before DANAH).

I was just going to give this flight a try but the route seems strange. V64 V363 without a fix in between seems a strange notation. Beyond that, V64 does not appear to intersect V363 at all. V64 appears to end at SLI eastbound. It seems as if you'd have to fly V64 to SLI then V283 to JOGIT to join V363. I'm I missing something here? I wouldn't doubt it.

Dave

The route is correct as entered, check the TEC routes in the Socal AFD for verification if you wish

Strange, isn't it?

Keep looking, let us know what you'd do.

For the record, V264 and V186 used to have a similar "weld", without a fix in there. So it does happen. However ITSME was added not long ago. Some of the routes might still show without it though.

Dave, I will correct you on one small thing to make sure you're looking in the right direction....V64 does indeed continue after SLI, out to the east.

Aside from the strangeness of the roundabout routing itself, the only truly tricky thing about the route seems to be that the intercept of V363 occurs at an unnamed intersection (just a bit east of TUSTI and bit south of JOGIT). I suppose this is why Keith says that GPS isn't always your friend -- it's hard to enter a waypoint without a name. The Garmin G1000 allows for user-defined waypoints (based on radial intersections, which in this case is the SLI R-080/ELB R-325), but that doesn't do us simmers any good -- the G1000 simulations (even the the excellent standalone version from Flight1Tech) doesn't implement user-defined WPs.

If I was really keen on using my GPS as much as possible I suppose I'd plan this with a GPS route of ...SLI TUSTI COREL ELB... then use my VOR tuned to the ELB R-325 radial to intercept V363 southbound to ELB (and then just activate the ELB->Danah leg on my GPS routing once I crossed ELB). Another way to look at this is that the unnamed intersection occurs on the SLI R-260 radial (a heading of 080 outbound) at 14 DME from SLI (or at 8 NM before COREL if using GPS) -- that means we can plan to turn right at 13.5-ish DME (or 8.5-ish NM GPS from COREL) to intercept V-363 without overshoot. I will acknowledge, though, that I cannot see a way to fly this route without at least temporary use of a VOR to get from the unnamed intersection to ELB if you don't have a GPS that allows user-defined waypoints.

From looking at the flight route overlayed on the LA Sectional it seems like the purpose of the routing might be to avoid the core of the KSNA Charlie airspace, although it's hard for me to understand why SLI V23 OCN wouldn't be just as good of a routing since the TEC route altitude is 5000' (which is above the Charlie anyway except maybe for a few minutes at the NW edge, right at the demarcation between the 44/25 and the 54/25 sections).
-M.

Yes, any recent Garmin (not just the G1000) will allow you to set up user waypoints, according to lat/long, VOR/DME, or the intersection of two VOR radials. Using the later construct is of course the easiest, and in particular here you would create a user waypoint using SLI R-080 and ELB R-325, as I believe you note. You could call it 64363. Inserting that waypoint in your flight plan, between SLI & ELB. Done.

But, even without using a user waypoint, you can if you wish to avoid direct VOR navigation. Just include SLI and ELB in the flight plan, and OBS a track of 080 from SLI when reaching it, the GPS nav will follow that radial out. At TUSTI (11nm), go to flying the current heading - you only have a few nms, and select ELB as the active waypoint, and OBS a track of 145. Then re-engage GPS navigation, and it will nicely intercept V363 for you.

* Orest

Orest,

Yeah, I thought about a trick like that, just making a right turn at about 2.5 NM after TUSTI and flying a heading of 145 knowing I'd be right over ELB in just a few minutes and let my GPS take over again -- it's only 7 NM from the turn. There would have to be a hurricane blowing to make you miss ELB from that distance.

Is that kosher in the real world -- to 'fudge' the route a little bit when there is very little chance of getting truly off course?

Love it, Keith.

It think flying it without GPS is not that bad.

For that hard part of the route I will fly from SLI on Radial 080,( NAV2 VOR radio set to ELB) as I am on SLI R080, I will watch when the end of the NAV2 radio needle points to 325 and I will turn direct ELB.
I will try to fly it this weekend and ask ATC not to give me the shortcuts.

The whole route will look like that, see link below.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.70188962504 ... :A.K2.KCRQ

Cheers, Andrzej

Wow-we, this all hints of another excellent idea who's time has come. It feels and sounds like the makings of a mass conscience (SBT) Scenario library.

Thomas