PilotEdge Forums

Hi,

First - gotta say how much I love PE; it takes practice to a whole new level with controllers issuing clearance you're not familiar (KWANG 5 DP - KSBA never issues it, but good experience), not just flying the flights you're familiar with, and the pressure of not being able to hit "pause" to figure stuff out...

Couple of q's:

Inbound to KCMA on the VOR 26 Approach I was told "Radar Service Terminated" contact Tower at BAINE. I've never heard "Radar Service Terminated" while IFR - so thanks for the lesson that some tower's don't have radar, but you can still remain IFR.

Flying KSBA GVO KSBP:
- Instructed "Upon reaching 4,000 Direct GVO then own nav". I was expecting "proceed as filed" - I assume "own nav" means it's my responsibility to get from GVO to the next agreed way-point (KSBP).

- Heading into KSBP ATC instructed "Expect Visual for Runway 28". Motoring along @ 4,000ft I was expecting step-down altitude instructions. 4.8 miles from the airport I called approach with "Airport in sight"; at that time I was cleared for the visual. What is the correct procedure so there isn't an excessively steep descent required? Is it my responsibility to request lower?

Thanks, Chris.

Glad you like it, Chris. The "radar services terminated" thing throws a lot of people. Flying IFR means you're provided separation, it does NOT always mean the separation is being provided using RADAR means. Non-radar procedures are a dying art, except for the Oceanic guys, who have to do their position reports just like the old days (although even that's being automated now, if I understand correctly).

One very practical implication of flying IFR into a non-radar environment is that the Final Approach Fix now becomes a mandatory reporting point (this requirement goes away in radar environments).

"Upon reaching 4000, proceed direct GVO then resume own navigation" represents the end of your radar vectors and the resumption of your cleared route. "proceed as filed" isn't a term used by ATC, that I'm aware of. That could cause some ambiguity for cases where the pilot FILED one thing on the ground but was cleared for another. If you're later told to "proceed as filed," which are you going to do? "resume own navigation" is in the Pilot Controller Glossary and has a specific meaning to it.

The MVA SE of SBP is 3k in one sector and 2700 in another sector, that's as low as the controller could've dropped you prior to you getting the field in sight. Why you were left at 4k, I'm not sure (earlier in the route, the MVA was 4k). He might've been busy, or he might not have been thinking much about your descent. You are in charge of managing your descent to the airport. If you're reaching a point that you consider to be your Top of Descent, by all means, "Approach, November Three Alpha Bravo, request lower."

ATC will _generally_ try to get you down as low as they can when they can, but mistakes do happen. Definitely request lower to prompt them. If you're already at the MVA, there's not much they can do until you are cleared for an approach. If you're at the MEA, the only practical option is to pull you off your route with a vector and get you down to the MVA.

Update: I just checked...V27's MEA is 4k. My guess is that was the airway you were on and the controller was keeping you at the MEA. His only option would've been "fly hdg xxx, vectors visual approach, descend and maintain 2700."

Keith,

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful response. This underscores the usefulness of PE - to aid in keeping current (I'm knocking 4 years of rust off my PP/IFR ticket). I'll go read the Pilot Controller Glossary for some bedtime reading...

Thanks, Chris.

Hi Chris! I'm not a PE controller... but work at a small facility in Duluth...

Check out the controller "rulebook," I think it explains the rationale fairly well...

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publicat ... c0501.html

section 5-1-13 b3

Thanks Ryan - very helpful!