PilotEdge Forums

I was listening to ATC while flying on United into Denver from LAX tonight and I heard some clearances that didn't sound right to me, so I thought I'd ask about them here.

The weather was something like 12,000 scattered and visibility was very good below the cloud layer. We were flying the PEEKK ONE arrival, a almost pure RNAV STAR with a profile descent, which you can see here http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1213/09077PEEKK_C.PDF. As you'll see, it puts arrivals on a nice "downwind" leg that I suspect is intended to allow controllers to more easily sequence arrivals into the RWY 16 complex -- it reminds me of the SADDE SIX arrival into LAX for the RWY 24 complex there.

From what I could hear, we were going to be number three or four to land behind other traffic also inbound from the west, and there was other traffic behind us also flying the PEEKK ONE.

Approach control turned one of the planes in front of us to a "base" leg and then gave them the choice of runway 16L or R (there apparently weren't any arrivals coming in from the east at that time). As it happens, they chose 16R. As soon as they made their choice, the controller cleared them for a visual approach to 16R. The next plane also chose the right, and after confirming he had the traffic in front of him was also cleared for a visual approach to 16R. Our pilot chose 16L, and was similarly cleared for a visual approach, as, ultimately, was the plane behind us. The plane behind us was warned they were following a Boeing 757, but ATC never asked if our "trailer" had us in sight.

Here is what I don't understand: at no time did the controller ever ask anybody if they had the airport in sight. I thought that a visual approach REQUIRED that a pilot have the airport in sight OR have the traffic in front of them that was flying a visual approach in sight? Only one of the planes was asked if they had traffic in sight, and at least two of the planes were cleared for the visual approach without reporting (or being asked if) they had the airport in sight.

What am I misunderstanding about visual approach clearances?

-M.

Your understanding of the requirements for being cleared for the visual approach seem accurate to me. I'm not sure what was going on there. Perhaps there were some calls that you hadn't heard, or were made before you arrived on the frequency? Either that, or they're playing by some rules that I'm not aware of.

10 bucks says that they reported them in sight on another frequency.

Upon reflection, I realize Keith is probably right -- I missed the calls. It popped back into my brain when I read his reply that the flight attendants were making their first "arrival" notifications and I couldn't hear ATC for a bit. So I figure Ryan owes me ten bucks. I guess I can't prove they didn't use another frequency though, so we'll split the difference and he can pay me five bucks.


While we're on the topic of visual approaches, here's another question. The clearance requires the pilot to maintain continuous visual contact with the airport or with the airplane he is following. Here is a situation that makes me think I still don't understand what this means:

On my I-05 rating (several months ago), I was flying the CLARR TWO arrival into LAS. After the right turn at ISSAR, the controller told me to expect a visual approach for RWY 19 (don't remember L vs. R; don't think that matters for my question). I'd never done a visual approach before and requested the RWY 25L ILS which was promptly granted and the approach and landing were routine.

To this day, though, that "expect" has bothered me. Making a left turn from the 080 heading you're flying towards BLD so as to to make right- or left-hand traffic for either of the 19 runways is easy enough -- but flying a standard downwind-base-final pattern is going to take the airport out of sight for a bit. It seems to me, then, that you can't fly a visual approach in that manner to the 19 complex when inbound from ISSAR towards BLD. If I hadn't requested the ILS for 25L would I have been vectored around to the north and then turned back south before the actual visual approach clearance was issued? -- or would I have been expected to fly a big half-circle to keep the airport in sight at all times? --or do I just not understand something?

-M.

While I agree it's hard to do in a sim (I have video from two recent flights of this exact procedure) because of field of view limitations, in real life, you'd be able to keep the field in sight throughout the turn, or most importantly, know where you are in relation to the field. There's no expectation that you'll be vectored for a straight-in prior to a visual approach clearance.

San Jose International used to work like that during east ops. Aircraft would arrive from the southeast, call the field, then circle for 12R....a purely visual maneuver.

I think you skipped a step on me

For the specific situation (eastbound from ISSAR towards BLD at 8000', and told to expect a visual approach for runway 19R, let's say) -- what is likely to happen next? Would I be cleared for the visual approach from that heading once I reported the airport in sight? Would I be vectored a bit before the clearance? Would they take a look at my callsign, realize who I was, then just vector me out over the Nevada Test Site and giggle when Nellis launched F-16s for a hot intercept?

-M.

You can cleared for a visual approach once you have the field in sight...where you're pointing and what your altitude is doesn't change things a great deal. They might throw some extra limitations on it to get you sequenced for the runway and clear of other traffic flows, but that's about it.