PilotEdge Forums

Say we've called up SoCal for flight following after departing from KRCQ on our way to KTOA and have gotten our squawk and are merrily flying along the shoreline towards our destination. When we called in the f/f request, we told them we were going direct to Torrance.

As it happens, our route of flight is going to take us right through the KSNA Charlie because we're flying at 4500 feet. There are two scenarios I want to make sure I understand:

• Assuming ATC's workload is reasonable, will they automatically coordinate my transition through the Charlie? (and two sub-questions here: if the answer is "yes", will they say anything to me about it? Will they be offended if, as I approach the Charlie, I ask *them* to verify I'm cleared through the Charlie if I've not heard anything?).
• Even if the answer to first part of the question above is "yes", what happens if ATC starts to get busier and busier with IFR flights as I'm on my way north -- to the point where "workload permitting" for helping me becomes marginal? Will they simply (and abruptly) say "Cessna 757SM, radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved" and be done with me? What if I'm that hypothetical 60 seconds away from penetrating the Charlie when they drop me? (and this is why I asked the sub-question earlier about whether I'll be told I'm cleared through the Charlie or whether I'm just assuming that I am).

I love the idea behind flight following and (as Keith knows) I'm a huge fan of using it whenever possible. I just want to make sure I clearly understand what I can expect from them, especially in airspace as crazy as ZLA.

Mark,
What I have found during VFR flights with FF is that when I seem to be getting a little too close to the particular airspace the controller will ask me my intentions - "C-FEGU - are you planning on the KSNA transition?" . I tell him that I am or am not and we take it from there. I usually skirt (over or around)the airpsace to keep workload at a minimum.
If you want to be a little more proactive, you could always call approach and let them know your intentions.I would assume it would go something like this:
"SOCAL approach - Skyhawk C-FEGU heading 330, 20 miles south of KSNA at 4500 ft, requesting transition thru KSNA class C".
Skyhawk EGU - SOCAL approach, report 10(or some such number)miles out.
When everything is peachy, they will clear you thru (or not)
I am sure they would prefer this method. They know what you are now thinking and they can probably set up the traffic better for separation.
This is a complete guess to me as I am not a controller, but I would assume that I am close.
Maybe someone with more knowledge can clear the muddy waters for you.

Good Luck and happy flying!!

Hi Mark,

As we established in the other post, as long as you're in two-way radio contact with the radar controller that serves the SNA class C, you're authorized to enter the outer shelves. Clarification is one of the best things about ATC. If you ever listen to any major class B airport, you will regularly hear pilots confirming their landing clearance (while completing their landing checklist) even though they received it 1 minute before. If they have doubt, they ask. Same goes for you. If you're not sure about whether your transition will work for the controller, just ask. Most likely they will let you know about any restrictions before you enter.

If a controller gets so busy that they can't handle your class C entrance, they'll let you know long enough in advance for you to make a detour. Traffic flow and congestion increases incrementally, not in random blasts that result in VFR FF aircraft being thrown out.

Whenever I fly VFR in the RW - I feel much more at ease with a controller watching my back. Sometimes you can barely see the converging aircraft until they're right on top of you. The information the controller provides, especially altitude, can keep you out of trouble. All that money you spend on taxes can save your life while taking a stroll through the skies.

Julio,

Thanks for this reply, particularly because you just put something together for me that I had NOT previously quite grasped. Until you said it the way you did in your reply I hadn't realized that just by having flight following we had already "established communication"! Sometimes I'm as dense as a rock. Class C airspace, then, really is a complete non-issue if we have flight following active. As long as ATC doesn't tell us to stay out of the Charlie we get to enter it. Very cool. Wow -- I don't see how I missed that. Thanks again for clearing that up for me!

The Bravo, though, is a different matter, right? For that we need explicit clearance. If the flight I was describing was going, say, to Camarillo airport, we'd need to transition the Bravo. Would the controller simply ask us at some point how we wanted to transition the Bravo (and expect us to say something like, "we'll climb to 6500 and fly the coastal route")? --or would we be expected to request a transition without prompting from ATC?

I'm glad that helped clarify how flight following and two-way radio contact are basically the same thing.

Yes, class B requires explicit clearance from the radar or tower controller. One thing to keep in mind: ATC Generally tries their best to keep arriving class B aircraft inside of the airspace so that all the VFR folks flying outside can rest assured a B747 wont buzz them at close range. The controller may or may not ask you for your transition intentions. Don't assume that they will. If you're getting close to the class B and you haven't heard, let them know what you are hoping to do. You don't have to worry about a controller prompting you. Let them know your intentions ahead of time and they can take care of the rest or they'll ask you to make your request with the next controller.

To give you an idea of a flight I did last May (look at the map with San Francisco Fly):
http://skyvector.com/?ll=37.78911184817 ... :A.K2.KCCR

Took off from KCCR, requested class B clearance nearing Golden Gate Fields (VPGGF)
"Norcal Approach, Skyhawk N4902F, 2 miles east of Golden Gate Fields at 4500, request Bravo clearance for a bay tour, Planning to fly Golden gate bridge, down the shorline and returning east south of half moon bay."

They gave us a clearance to fly at 4000 even. What got interesting was as we neared SFO, they gave us vectors to avoid a B777 departure.
"Skyhawk 02F, fly heading 100, vector for departing heavy B777." We called it in sight and only when they felt it was safe they allowed us to continue southbound.
When we cleared the Bravo we were sent to the controller that handles SJC for our flight following. We called them up slightly west of the SJC charlie:
"Norcal Approach, Skyhawk 4902F, level at 4000, request touch and go at SJC."
"Skyhawk 4902F, Norcal Approach. Proceed midfield for left traffic runway 30L."

So we entered the class C since we had two-radio communication. We did a touch and go along side a landing hawker jet and then flew back to Concord. The controller asked if we had Walnut Creek in sight (the larger town south of Concord) he cancelled our flight following and we were left to our own devices flying VFR at night.

Bravo transitions really aren't that scary as long as you make your request with plenty of time to spare.

Mark,

Do you recall from the last workshop that when we chair-flew the CRQ-TOA flight, we said that because we have flight following, the Class C effectively disappears for us?

I wouldn't go as far requesting a Charlie transition if you already have F/F and your route/alt is clearly going to take you through the Charlie. Bear in mind, there is nothing for them to coordinate. Coordination happens between two controllers when an aircraft speaking with one controller is going to penetrate the airspace belonging to another controller, and there is an operational advantage to keeping the pilot speaking with just the first controller (ie, NOT handing them off to the 2nd controller). In the case of you flying through the Charlie, there is NO coordination, because the controller who's providing you the flight following is the same guy who owns the Charlie.

Thanks Keith,Julio
That clears it up for me also as I usually have FF.
I did not mean to confuse matters with my novice answer.

Keith Smith wrote:...In the case of you flying through the Charlie, there is NO coordination, because the controller who's providing you the flight following is the same guy who owns the Charlie.

Keith, I was with you until this point. But I would have thought that the "owner" of the Charlie is the Tower for that airport, rather than SoCal (in this case). I guess that's not the case then?

Tower typically owns the inner core up to a fairly low altitude. Above that, and in the outer core, it's the TRACON (approach controller).

Ahhhhhhhhh! That explains *SO* much. Cheers!