PilotEdge Forums

Besides getting my butt whooped by the Lear24 today on the 19 ODP leaving KEMT, I found myself fairly high on the approach clearance for ILS 30R into KBFL tonight.

I'm not quite sure about how the STAR, the FASTO1, ties in with the approach clearance ILS 30R... actually that's a poor way to write my query... I see the ILS depicted on the STAR...

I filed PMD FASTO1. After crossing WIJYI I was cleared ILS 30R approach. Maybe I'm just thinking too hard because the approach plate doesn't include those outer fixes at all. But the STAR chart has all the fixes including the FAF depicted. I think that's where I was confused because I loaded the overlay approach via the GNS530W and it took away all my fixes that were on the STAR... Am I legal to select VTF on the Garmin after WIJYI and fly it via LNAV/GPSS? Or am I supposed to keep the STAR loaded, fly that until the FAF, switch to VLOC and fly the ILS that way? Basically, in FSX, there's no way the localizer signal extends much farther out past FASTO (15mi final-ish)... usually the FSX loc can be picked up 20 miles out MAX. At WIJYI, I'm 36 miles from the localizer antenna and no way FSX can receive it.

What if I'm not RNAV equipped? Am I to fly the 123R inbound to EHF, then reaching FASTO, switch to the loc freq and follow ILS?

Additionally, what am I using for vertical calculation with no GS from FSX? My brain? (What's that??) I admit my chart reading skills are a little rusty but I think after WIJYI the lowest I can go is 10,000 until KELEN and so forth? This is what I did and ended up having a rapid -2000 descent (not too bad in a turbojet but I was really having to slow down and descend).

I think the weirdest part is that AMONT, an IAF, is not on the STAR. If it were I'd not be confused.

If the GPS erased all of the arrival fixes when you loaded the approach, perhaps it's because you activated it. Lesson learned: don't do that too early. And NEVER activate vectors-to-final on the GPS unless you are actually receiving vectors to final! That is a recipe for disaster.

If you're flying the arrival on your GPS, you should load the approach from FASTO, but don't activate it. I believe the GNS530 will automatically begin sequencing you on the approach once you reach FASTO, but since this is an ILS approach, you would switch into VLOC mode and begin tracking the localizer inbound at that point. You will already be lined up perfectly since the course from MINJI to FASTO coincides with the localizer course. Fly FASTO to JUPEX at 2500 feet, fly one turn in the hold-in-lieu-of-procedure-turn, intercept the glide slope, and grease the landing.

If you're flying the arrival without GPS, you would track the PMD 298 radial outbound to WIJYI, then the EHF 123 radial inbound (303 course) to MINGI, intercept the localizer at MINGI, fly the course reversal at JUPEX and sail on in.

One final note: when flying with GPS as your primary method of navigation, you are legally required* to keep your VOR radios tuned to the appropriate stations as a backup. If you had been doing that, you could have easily switched over to VLOC and continued following the arrival as soon as your GPS fixes were erased. (Obviously this requirement does not apply to RNAV procedures.)

*EDIT: I could have sworn I read that somewhere in the FARs, but now I can't find it. So maybe I'm wrong about this being a legal requirement, but I still think it's a good idea.

Thanks for that. Although I'm 99% sure I don't fly the HILPT coming off the STAR. It says no PT when coming from the SE established on the LOC.

Where do you see that? Are you talking about the "4500 NoPT" specified on the route from AMONT? That is not going to apply from MINGI. The arrival takes you all the way to JUPEX, and JUPEX is the point at which you stop flying the arrival and start flying the approach. That's why the localizer is depicted on the arrival; you are still technically flying the arrival when you intercept the localizer at MINJI! With that in mind, read the plate as if you are starting the approach at JUPEX (which you are). According to the plate, you must fly the procedure turn since there is no notation at JUPEX saying otherwise.

I agree that it seems a bit nutty to make a turn in a hold when you're already set up for a straight-in, but legally speaking, the way I'm reading this plate that is what you are supposed to do unless the controller tells you otherwise or clears you for a straight-in. It might help you lose altitude since you're going to be arriving at FASTO at 4800 and you've only got 7.4 miles to get down to 2500. That's no problem in most piston singles, but if you're flying a Learjet you might need more time.

Also, I think the controller was in error in clearing you for the approach from WIJYI. I'm totally ready for someone to tell me I'm wrong about that, but WIJYI is nowhere near the beginning of the approach; it's not even a feeder. The controller should have given you altitudes to fly on the arrival (or maybe a "descend via" instruction, though I'm not sure the nuances on those) and then an approach clearance upon crossing JUPEX, or possibly FASTO, although FASTO is not a feeder either; it's an intermediate fix on the route from Gorman.

I have to (mostly) agree with Josh -- I don't think you can be legally cleared (based upon what I know right at this moment) from WIJYI. What altitude would you fly from there?

It does seem very odd that the STAR drops you off at FASTO rather than AMONT. JAPAR, which is part of the STAR, is just barely outside of AMONT, and MINGI is just barely inside AMONT.

You're actually arriving at FASTO at 4500, not 4800 -- so you've got 2000' to descend in 7.4 miles. Even you're still at 250Kts at AMONT you shouldn't have an issue with the roughly 1350 fpm descent required in the 1:46 it will take you to reach FASTO.

I'm very curious to see the ATC take on this one.

-M.

I am too then.

The STAR and the ILS seem to conicide as you get closer.

I still wouldn't do the HILPT but I don't have good reasoning for that other than the fact that if established on localizer (call it a gray area from the approach plate, the 4500 noPT) I shouldn't need to. Also it would be pointless to fly the turn (ironically I probably needed it but that was poor descent planning on my part to begin with). Also I bet MINGI and AMONT are co-located. It's just that the IAP chart maps it at 22.2 and the other one is FASTO + 7 DME (I say that because MINGI appears to be situated on the localizer for 30R).

If you look at the IAP the real distance for FASTO is 14.7 while on the STAR its labeled as 15

If they interchanged AMONT with MINGI the confusion would be gone...

AMONT and MINGI are both on the en route chart and they are very close, but definitely not co-located:

http://skyvector.com/?ll=35.13458482008 ... F.K2.AMONT

I would be in agreement that the approach clearance from WIJYI is slightly odd. It isn't a valid IAF on the ILS30R at BFL, so officially you couldn't use it like SEAVU or RIIVR on the ILS25L at LAX.

To my eyes, the FASTO1 suggests that you will be cleared for the ILS30R from JUPEX since the hold is marked in the "expect this from ATC" dotted line. Looking at the FASTO1 and the ILS30R approach chart, I would descend the aircraft using the MEAs on the FASTO1 and then give a crossing restriction and approach clearance from JUPEX. One could also vector the aircraft west of the final approach course for descent and then send them back in near FASTO to avoid the trouble of the hold.

I should clarify... I was cleared for the approach after WIJYI... but still not a feeder.

I guess I was wrong about those two fixes... thanks

I'm not sure who was working me either.