PilotEdge Forums

Hi to all of you,

since it's been a while since my last flight on PE I moved on practising VFR flights these days.

So I went from KSNA (John Wayne) to KTOA (Torrance) and planned on going KTOA to KOXR (Oxnard) afterwards.

As I parked at KTOA at the ramp planning my further flight to KOXR a problem arose:

Would it be possible to take off to the northwest, heading towards the Class B (LAX) and handle it to request/receive a clearance into the airspace within 60 seconds?

I supposed this would be difficult and so I decided to initially depart to the southwest to avoid the Class B first and having more time to request the clearance for my planned route (northwestbound and right through the Class B west of LAX)

Another idea was to coordinate the Transition while still on the ground so I decided to ask KTOA GND if he would handle that:
Audio here (11:50): http://assets.pilotedge.net/recordings/ ... _18011.mp3

(In short: no prior coordination, we would have to contact Approach when airborne)

After contacting Socal Approach the Controller seemed to be a bit puzzled over my request and offered the "coastal route" transition to the north but after that cleared us into the Class B as requested.
Audio here (00:00): http://assets.pilotedge.net/recordings/ ... _17510.mp3

Although I finally managed to fly my route as planned (see track here: http://peaware.pilotedge.net/flight.cfm?id=40880) I still have questions:

"Would it be practical to fly the route (KTOA-KOXR) as I did" ?
"In "real life", can I expect to receive a clearance through the Class B west of LAX anyway?"
"I did not receive any altitude or heading restrictions by Socal APP, did the Controller miss to issue them?"
"Would it be better to fly the published VFR routes for transitioning from south to North (or vice versa) of the LAX Class B?"

If anyone could clear this up for me I would be thankful..

Regards
Robert

I would've just called up Torrance ground and asked for taxi for north departure (no need to tell ground about the Bravo transition) then let tower know you're "departing north for the mini route" when at the runway. That way they'll be sure to hand you off to HHR tower in a timely manner who'll coordinate the transition at 2500'. No need to circle around to gain altitude, just straight north out of Torrance to join the SMO 308* bearing. Then after SMO, head direct. That also keeps you over land and near several runways in case of emergency instead of open water.

Here's the route I'd have taken: http://skyvector.com/?ll=34.04418933415 ... :A.K2.KOXR

To answer your questions directly:
1: not ideal and probably not realistic
2: I don't think so, with the constant heavy departures
3: I think he was just too busy with others on the network and gave up (I could be wrong though)
4: yes

Hi Robert,

There is also another way, using the "Special flight Rules Area" (SFRA), no prior coordination with ATC required, if you have a reasonably good performance aircraft doing a right downwind departure out of 29R you should have no trouble
getting up to the required 4,500 northbound in time.

SkyVector = http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.62176891073 ... 114&zoom=3

Merv

Hi Robert, I've done some digging on what transpired on this one, including speaking to each of the controllers involved.

Briefly, it's perfectly fine to attempt to coordinate a transition of a nearby Bravo with the ground controller at a satellite airport. Even though they won't grant the Bravo clearance, that can set expectations, tell approach/tower you're coming, get you a squawk code in some cases, etc. This happens frequently at places like KSQL, which is just outside of the SFO Bravo. By coordinating with them first, the only call to SFO tower that you make is your callsign and altitude, then they radar ID you and clear you through the airspace.

The mitigating circumstance here was that you were requesting a random, non-standard transition, which is generally not done at airports which have published transitions. Ground offered you the mini-route, if I'm not mistaken, which would've allowed you to get into the Bravo as quickly as possible with minimal maneuvering. When you stated you didn't want that specific transition, ground punted it, essentially, and advised that you could coordinate whatever you wanted with approach once airborne (he was also busier than usual, so there was less time to discuss it than might have been possible during other times).

Once airborne, Socal offered you the Coastal Route, which would've been appropriate as you were south of Torrance, just a few miles west of the entry point for that transition. You stated you did not want that route and then coordinated the off shore route that you had visualized earlier.

To your questions:
1&2) TOA-OXR via a random offshore route through the bravo? I wouldn't count on it...the clearance would be highly variable based on traffic and controller workload in real life. My guess is that you might be able to transition the Bravo well offshore, but if granted, it would be at a relatively low altitude because of all of the LAX departures which would conflict with you being considerably west of LAX at any reasonable altitude for a single engine aircraft over water. As with most Bravo transitions, the best place to be is over the airport. Look at the published LAX transitions...all of the routes at the lower altitudes all go over the airport. It's only the routes at 7500+ ft that stray east of the field, high above the arrivals at that point.

3) the socal controller heard your request to fly offshore and approved it based on traffic. He didn't feel a need to add restrictions at the time.

4) very much so that's what they're for, and they work regardless of inbound/outbound IFR departures from the primary airport. By doing your own thing, you're reinventing the wheel, but you're doing it without the required information. Make your life easy, use the published transitions.

I understand your assertion that you might not get a Bravo clearance shortly after takeoff...but the mini-route would allow you to do exactly that. Study the Bravo transitions...work out which one is appropriate for a given operation and you'll be well-equipped to enjoy VFR flying in that area.

In order of preference for that flight: I would use:
- miniroute
- SFRA
- Coastal Route

Thank you Jeff N, MervA and Keith for your opinions.

I understand my Idea of using a "non-standard transition, which is generally not done at airports which have published transitions" caused confusion by the Controllers and also by myself.

And it is great to learn such things by Simulating them rather than trying this in real-life. Thats what makes PE valuable.

But dont rejoice too early... I am sure it won't take long for my next "good idea" to come up on my next flights

Regards
Robert